Welcome back to Roshar! Way, way back to Roshar… This week Dalinar revisits one of his visions which apparently took place long before Aharietiam; this time, he’s got company, as a certain queen is drawn into the vision when the highstorm passes over her. She’s going to see some strong evidence that things are changing!
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. Not this week, so no worries about the article itself, though we make no promises about the comments. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar Kholin
WHERE: Undisclosed village in one of Dalinar’s visions
WHEN: 1174.1.6.1, three days after Shallan talks to Jasnah and six days after Dalinar learns the Stormfather can bring other people into his visions.
Dalinar enters into the Stormfather’s visions again, this time by design. He inhabits the form of one of the Knights Radiant arriving to protect a town from the Midnight Mother, and finds Queen Fen—whom he’d asked the Stormfather to pull into this vision. The two have a heated discussion about Dalinar and why Fen doesn’t trust him, but his honesty and passion convince her to give him another chance.
Threshold of the Storm
Title: Resistance
Alice: The comment that accompanied this suggestion speaks for itself: “Fen organized a great resistance. The KR talked about how all those that resist should go to Urithiru. And Dalinar was able to overcome her resistance about joining forces. (At least somewhat.)”
Heralds
Chanarach, Nale
Lyn: I think Chanarach (Dustbringers, divine attributes of Brave and Obedient) is here because of Fen. She shows great bravery in this scene, saving the child and uniting the townspeople against the Midnight Mother. Nale (Skybreakers, divine attributes Just and Confident), on the other hand… He could be also symbolic of Fen in that she’s certainly confident. Alice?
A: It’s funny; I’d have expected Jezrien and Taln for the two Radiants in the vision, or at least Ishar for Dalinar. Instead we get Chana, though I agree that she fits well with Fen’s actions. I’m less sure about Nale; again, I’d have thought maybe Jezrien for her leadership. But… confident, I guess? And maybe the justice of her accusation against Dalinar, that it’s not reasonable to expect the rest of the world to simply take him at his word, given his past record. That’s all I’ve got.
Icon
Kholin glyph-pair
Epigraph
I noticed its arrival immediately, just as I noticed your many intrusions into my land.
A: Well, somebody sounds miffy! This is the evidence that the first letter comes from a Shard whose world Hoid has visited many times… which could be any of them, eh?
Stories & Songs
All went dark around Dalinar, and he entered a place between his world and the visions. A place with a black sky and an infinite floor of bone-white rock. Shapes made of smoke seeped through the stone ground, then rose around him, dissipating. Common things. A chair, a vase, a rockbud. Sometimes people.
L: Wait. This isn’t Shadesmar… is it? Is there another Realm?
A: ::can’t resist…:: RAFO!
“What was that place?” Dalinar asked.
IT IS NO PLACE.
I IMAGINED IT, the Stormfather said more softly, as if he were admitting something embarrassing.
L: Okay, so definitely not Shadesmar, then. But close? Can anyone else access this Realm, or only the Stormfather? Can it be used to travel, like Shadesmar can?
A: I honestly don’t know. The Stormfather doesn’t seem to think so. He’s not omniscient, but he probably knows more about the realms than I do!
ALL THINGS HAVE A SOUL. A VASE, A WALL, A CHAIR. AND WHEN A VASE IT BROKEN, IT MIGHT DIE IN THE PHYSICAL REALM, BUT FOR A TIME ITS SOUL REMEMBERS WHAT IT WAS. SO ALL THINGS DIE TWICE. ITS FINAL DEATH IS WHEN MEN FORGET IT WAS A VASE, AND THINK ONLY OF THE PIECES.
L: This is really deep, and reminds me of the concept that men also truly die twice—once when they pass on, and once when their name is spoken for the last time.
A: This was deep, and also unexpected. Not so long ago, Kaladin was railing at the Stormfather for not changing the highstorm to suit him, and good ol’ StormDad blew him off… so to speak.
L: Heh. Puns.
A: (They’re rare from me, but they do happen!) It’s interesting to see him here, the soul of a highstorm that breaks everything in its path, imagining a place for the souls of the broken things to dwell while they wait to be forgotten. It’s very melancholy, and sort of sweet.
Also, this foreshadows how Dalinar will be able to rebuild some things later, and might possibly be linked to why Renarin can’t heal people who have accepted their injuries.
About the size of an axehound, they had oily black skin that reflected the moonlight. While they moved on all sixes, they were like no natural animal. They had spindly legs like a crab’s, but a bulbous body and a sinuous head, featureless except for a slit of a mouth bristling with black teeth.
L: I’m certain that I’ve seen something like this in a horror film but I’ve seen too many to keep them all straight, or remember exactly where I’ve seen it. Anyway. If the Midnight Mother is trying to copy something here, I wonder if it was just axehounds, or some creation of her own? I find it hard to believe that with all of her life experience she’d have such a hard time recreating humans in the present—maybe she had just forgotten after being trapped in Urithiru alone for so long.
A: Or, perhaps, during all that time she was trapped she developed a desire to copy the beings who trapped her? I’m not much help with the horror-film aspect; that’s not my gig!
“You don’t eat the corpses,” Dalinar said to it. “You kill for pleasure, don’t you? I often think of spren and man are so different, but this we share. We can both murder.”
L: I wonder if the Midnight Mother’s creations have a sort of… hive mind thing going on, or if each of them has its own sapience until it gets reclaimed by the main body. If the former, Dalinar’s speaking directly to the Unmade here, which is pretty chilling to consider.
A: Either one is a bit creepy, come to think of it. They don’t seem particularly intelligent, so I sort of assumed they were like dogs (except dumber) set loose with a “kill” command, but when I stop to think about it… I sort of think they’d have to be actively maintained by Mommy Dearest. So the next question is, was he talking to the Unmade, or just to a memory of the Unmade? (Okay, I’m really glad this is in a vision, because it means he probably wasn’t actually talking to her. I hope.)
Buy the Book
The Ruin of Kings
Bruised & Broken
“Maybe all the good men are dead, so all you have is me!”
L: It makes me sad that Dalinar thinks of himself this way, but… in a way, he’s right. He wasn’t a good man, in his past. Maybe it takes a man who truly understands the horror of war, having experienced it himself, to save the world. I find it interesting that in Dalinar and Kaladin we have two men who have experienced the horror of war, but from opposite sides. Dalinar was the bloodthirsty tyrant, and Kaladin the stalwart soldier trying to preserve the lives of those beneath him.
A: This book really gave me a sense of mental whiplash with Dalinar. I like him. A lot. Except that when he was younger, he was a real piece of work. It’s been well over a year since I first read this, and I still have trouble reconciling the two different men he is.
Places & Peoples
In Alethkar, a fine wooden mansion would be a symbol of wealth. Here, however, many of the other houses were of wood.
L: Because trade restrictions with Shinovar are lessened, or because the highstorms aren’t as powerful and hence trees are growing in more places? Is it possible that the highstorms are growing more potent with time, as more and more people come to worship the Stormfather? If he’s a manifestation of the peoples’ ideals, then wouldn’t it make sense that he’s become more powerful over time?
A: Fine, go all meta on me! Here I was just assuming that this took place in a part of the world that had more trees—probably farther west where the highstorms are less devastating, maybe even in Shinovar itself. But the theory about the highstorms growing in strength is pretty cool.
He’d have expected everything in the past to be crude, but it wasn’t. The doors, the buildings, the clothing. It was well made, just… lacking something he couldn’t define.
L: This would have taken place after the last Desolation but before the Recreance, right? Or could it have been a few Desolations back? That would make sense that the society is advanced… each society regressed after the Desolation hit, so if this vision happened just before one….
A: You’re most likely right that it’s just before a Desolation. My best guess is that it’s many Desolations back—so, maybe 5000 or more years ago, before the Heralds started to buckle so quickly. It’s all speculative, but I’d say this was long enough ago that the Heralds were giving humanity a lot of time to recover. I’m still puzzled about the thing is that he thought was lacking, though.
“Should you wish to learn true leadership, come to Urithiru.”
L: Is he insinuating that she should become a Radiant, or do the Radiants just train people in mundane methods of leadership as well?
A: After seeing this vision in TWoK, I had assumed the former. Knowing what we know now, which is still not much, it certainly seems that the Radiants would train all comers to the best of their abilities, with a likelihood that at least a significant percentage would become squires or Radiants.
“If you have the soul of a warrior, that passion could destroy you, unless you are guided.”
L: Wait, what? Is this a reference to the Thrill, perhaps?
A: Yay, it’s not just me! I thought that too. If we’re right, the Radiants seem to have had a way to help people avoid Thrill-addiction.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“Honestly, I just wanted to talk to you.”
“Send me a storming letter.”
L: Queen Fen continuously reminds me of Professor McGonagall and it makes me so happy.
A: I love Fen. Almost as much as much as I love Navani.
Weighty Words
Dalinar still didn’t know why Radiant Plate glowed, while modern Shardplate did not. Was the ancient Plate “living” somehow, like Radiant Blades lived?
L: Finally caught on, have you, Dalinar?
In response, the other Radiant made his [helm] vanish. Dalinar caught sight of a puff of Light or mist.
L: This is cool to finally see. If his armor is made up of windspren, as theorized, why does it vanish into Light or mist?
A: Because they’re poofing back into the Cognitive realm right away? Or… no. We don’t need new theories. But… what if there are other kinds of spren involved, like maybe the helm comes from a different spren related to light (so you can see through) or something? Please tell me this is a totally loony theory.
“You had to dismiss [your Plate] so I could Lash you.”
L: Well that’s an interesting tidbit, I wonder why?
A: WHY?? We know that ordinary Plate interferes with Lashings, but I’d expected that living Plate would be different. Apparently not. Sigh.
“Talk to Harkaylain then, or to your spren.”
L: Who? (SO MANY QUESTIONS.)
A: I’ve heard people assume that this means the armor is crafted by someone, with this guy cast in the role of “blacksmith.” (Sprensmith?) Personally, I’m betting he is either the head of the Stonewards, or possibly a Bondsmith. Back in the TWoK version of this vision, the Stoneward mentioned that “Harkaylain says the Desolation is close, and he is not often wrong.” It seems reasonable that she’s referring either to the leader of her own Order, or to one of the three Bondsmiths. This time, it seems reasonable that if she’s having trouble with her sprenPlate, the Windrunner would recommend either someone high in her own Order, or… a Bondsmith.
“How,” Dalinar whispered to the Stormfather. “How do we get the armor?”
Speak the Words.
“Which words?”
You will know or you will not.
Great.
L: Super helpful as always. But at least this is in-text verification that gaining Plate is another step in the Radiant progression.
A: I laughed so hard at this one. Poor Dalinar. Still, I liked the confirmation for him, specifically, that despite not getting a StormfatherBlade, he will eventually get Plate. (GlorysprenPlate FTW!)
Meaningful/Moronic/Mundane Motivations
“You really expect me to believe that the storming Knights Radiant are back and that the Almighty chose you—a tyrant and a murderer—to lead them?” …
“Your Majesty, you’re being irrational.”
“Am I? Oh, let me storming reconsider, then. All I need to do is let the storming Blackthorn himself into my city, so he can take control of my armies!”
“What would you have me do?” Dalinar shouted. “Would you have me watch the world crumble?”
A: This isn’t really a surprise to anyone, but the Thaylen Queen has very good and logical rationale for not cooperating with Dalinar, based on what she knew up to this point. Their shouting match, combined with the vision, creates an odd impetus to change their relationship. Have I ever mentioned that I really like Fen?
“A mandate from God—the very same argument the Hierocracy used for seizing control of the government. What about Sadees, the Sunmaker? He claimed he had a calling from the Almighty too.”
A: Again… we’ve discussed before the possibility that others received these visions in the past. How many of them could have been Bondsmiths had they studied the visions long enough to realize that they were not interactive, and had another purpose?
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
I am not a man. I do not bend or cower. I do what is in my nature, and to defy that is pain.
L: Pain? Well that’s interesting. Other highspren with bonds (like Syl) have drawn away from their Radiants when they displayed attributes that threatened breaking the oaths they’d made, but pain? That’s new.
A: This took me back to Syl’s remark to Kaladin in Chapter 31, that what he was asking of the Stormfather was like asking fire not to be so hot, thankyouverymuch. I think it’s a good reminder to the humanoids—both the characters and the readers—that the spren are not humans, and they neither function nor reason like humans. They cannot defy their nature, or pretend to be anything other than what they are. Not like… humans.
In context, it’s tough for me not to read it as the Stormfather just being stubborn because it bugs him when Dalinar pushes ideas he’s not used to. Because it’s so natural for us to read them with human emotions, this was a useful interjection. We really don’t understand the nature of spren yet, much less the Stormfather. We’ll learn more as we go through the book, and it’s going to be some good stuff, but it’s still going to take work to quit assuming they are even able to function like humans in certain ways.
Quality Quotations
Flailing his arms, he shouted in panic. His stomach lurched and his clothes flapped in the wind. He continued yelling until he realized that he wasn’t actually getting closer to the ground. He wasn’t falling, he was flying.
A: The mental image of Dalinar flapping around was pretty funny… until I was reminded of the last time someone Lashed him into the sky.
It was a painful irony that he should have such vivid feelings about this place, these people, when his memories of Evi were still so shadowy and confused.
* * *
“Where was this passion earlier?” she asked. “Why didn’t you speak like this in your letters to me?”
A: Is this connected to the Thaylen “Passions”?
“I know how to talk to her now. She doesn’t want polite words or diplomatic phrases. She wants me to be myself. I’m fairly certain that’s something I can deliver.”
As always, thanks for joining us on this little jaunt through Roshar, and join us for more theorizing in the comments and for next week’s reread, when we’ll tackle chapter 35, the first of the Bridge 4 POV sections in Part 2.
Alice’s hair is getting whiter by the day—her daughter just started driver’s training, and that means lots of time in the car with a student driver. Terror takes on a new dimension.
Lyndsey is so excited to start getting into the Bridge 4 POVs next week. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
I imagine the living armor would actually be even harder to lash than dead armor. The dead armor is still pretty invested, but the living armor with its additional abilities must be about as invested as a spren blade.
I think that the KR and the Renew surge don’t actually heal. All they do is force their physical self to reflect their cognitive selves. The reason The Lopen regrew his arm is because he always saw himself as a two armed Herdazian. Kaladin’s brands don’t heal because he sees himself as a runaway slave. And people generally see themselves without a sword in the gut.
I’m not sure if Regrowth works the same way. Maybe seeds imagine themselves to be big trees?
I’m not sure what you mean by “the Renew surge.” Could you clarify?
I think that one major point of the armor is to be resistant to lashings to protect from enemy lashings.
I am with you guys on Queen Fen being awesome.
TWoK vision placed this as “eighth epoch”, and takes place in Nataatan– though the people are not blue, so I assume this takes place before whatever event made the Natanatan people blue skinned. The Knights Radiant that showed up indicated that these are signs of an impending desolation.
One of the big things I loved about these scenes is how differently Fen and Dalinar handled the same vision. Dalinar was the old soldier, and went to fight the midnight essences head on. He was able to save his “wife” and “child” but lost the town. Fen abandoned her “wife” using her as a distraction to save her “child” and then proceeded to organize a resistance among the townspeople. Both ways went about preserving some life and sacrificing other life but it really brings to the fore how when thrown into life and death situations how differently people can act. It also shows that despite how differently different orders of knights function, they are all crucial in a combined war effort. Had Dalinar and Fen both entered the vision at the same place, I would assume Dalinar would have held off the midnight essences, saving both “wife” and “child” while Fen organized the town to repel the greater threat. Now more then ever, Roshar needs to unite instead of divide.
As to the Radiant Shardplate, I believe it was confirmed by Brandon that the issue is “connection”. If person A tries to lash person B’s plate, it will be difficult, because it is person B’s plate. If however person A lashes person A’s plate, it will work without issue. Investiture interferes with investiture unless it is your own investiture.
The Stormfather has said he will not turn into a sprenblade (except when Dalinar forces him to like he did later in OB). It seems, however, that the Stormfather does not have the same hang-ups regarding Shardplate. Even more evidence that the spren bonded by the Nahel bond does not have anything directly to do with Plate.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Alice: “A: Well, somebody sounds miffy! This is the evidence that the first letter comes from a Shard whose world Hoid has visited many times… which could be any of them, eh?” Would every Shard think of Hoid’s presence as an “intrusion”? In fact we know that one (two?) would not, since Sazed later invites him to visit.
Also, Lyn and Alice: “L: I wonder if the Midnight Mother’s creations have a sort of… hive mind thing going on, or if each of them has its own sapience until it gets reclaimed by the main body …
A: Either one is a bit creepy, come to think of it. They don’t seem particularly intelligent, so I sort of assumed they were like dogs …”
You’re reminding me of Vinge’s Tines, which are creations Brandon Sanderson has said several times he admires. I doubt that’s what he was going for here, but who knows?
Lyn: “I find it interesting that in Dalinar and Kaladin we have two men who have experienced the horror of war, but from opposite sides. Dalinar was the bloodthirsty tyrant, and Kaladin the stalwart soldier trying to preserve the lives of those beneath him.” Of course by the time we meet him, Dalinar is in fact the stalwart, protective soldier. We don’t meet mass-murdering psychopath Dalinar until after we already like present-Dalinar.
Also: “L: If his armor is made up of windspren, as theorized, why does it vanish into Light or mist?” Shardblades of any order (and thus any sapient-spren origin) also dissolve into mist. It’s apparently just how things work on Roshar.
The difference in reaction to the vision by Fen is great. The first time I read it, I assumed she was going to have to fight the essence creepies like Dalinar had done but I love what she did so much more. And her invitation to Urithiru is different as well-not to become a soldier but a leader. I would love to see Fen as a Radiant sometime; in fact I hope almost everyone has a spren bond by the end of the series, and that’s how they win.
With so many wooden houses-even in a lait-I wonder if what is missing are storm shutters; or maybe there are too many windows. If it really is from Natanantan as mentioned above, there shouldn’t be so many trees to make houses out of. I’d guess the storm intensity is significantly less, and possibly lower in frequency too. But not enough information; we don’t even get Jasnah’s ideas on it in OB
@8 Joyspren
Hmmmm, total crack pot theory, but depending on where this lait was located, could it be what the shattered plains were prior to becoming shattered was a giant windbreak? So as the storms continued over the land, they were “weaker”? Absolutely nothing to support it, and very very very unlikely, but might be cool if true :)
@5 – The Windrunner in the flashback is flying (falling) with his armor on, so it seems that your own armor doesn’t interfere with surgebinding. However, IIRC, Szeth notes internally in the prologue of TWoK that he can’t wear shardplate because it interferes with his surgebinding. I believe this is because the old shardplate of former radiants feeds on stormlight in order to function. Thus, it inhibits your ability to use stormlight.
@10 Austin
Just checking, when you said old shardplate, you mean the “dead” shardplate that the highprinces were using? I agree partially but I think the greater issue is again, that shardplate isn’t “connected” to Szeth so it would run into the same problems as Szeth attempting to lash other people with shardplate. The only difference is he is trying to push the lashing “out” from a sheath of it vs trying to push a lashing “into” it. Windrunner A attempting to lash Windrunner B in armor is still going to run into the same problem. Regardless what surge is being used, if you try to use that surge on another radiant, there is going to be some resistance. Two WoB for reference
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181-stormlight-three-update-4/#e3830
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/182-stormlight-three-update-5/#e3882
@11 scath:
Yes, I am referring to the “dead” plate currently used by lighteyes. For what it’s worth, this is the passage I was referring to:
I’d like to thank Fen for asking the right questions.
Far too often, people call for “unity” without thinking about what that actually means. In this context, “unity” means “do as the Blackthorn says, and allow his armies into your cities”. This is obviously a bad idea.
@13 Except that’s not what unity means in this case. It means working with Dalinar Kholin to survive the desolation and getting his help to rebuilt your city. Fen thinks it means what you said but she’s working from old data about Dalinar. It’s perfectly reasonable for her (and mostly everyone else) to make those assumptions about Dalinar’s intentions but they’re fundamentally wrong.
@12 Austin
No worries. As per the WoB, I posted, the reason would be because the dead shardplate is being fueled by the stormlight in those gems, so that stormlight would be considered “owned” by the shardplate. Since the shardplate is dead, it is not “connected” to Szeth, so by extension neither would the stormlight fueling the dead shardplate. That is why he would have to chose either shardplate or surges but not both. A full Radiant regarding his or her own living shardplate would not need to make such a choice. I would also posit that we do not know if a full radiant would need to feed the living shardplate stormlight to have it work. Sprenblades do not need gemstones to bond, only dead shardblades do. Even then dead shardblades use the gemstone more to establish the bond than maintain it. So I do not think we know yet if living radiant plate would need to be fed stormlight steadily like dead shardplate does.
@14 noblehunter
They are fundamentally wrong, but I appreciate Sanderson showing us that leaders aren’t going to just trust Dalinar. They can’t read his mind, after all.
Unity still means “trust Dalinar Kholin and let his armies into your city”. Dalinar isn’t actually going to backstab Fen and conquer Thaylen City, but she’ll be placing herself in a position of complete vulnerability to an Alethi ruler with a long history of brutality.
nightheron @@.-@ – Thank you for reminding me that this is in Natanatan. The lack of blue skin may be another hint that it’s a long long time ago. It still makes me wonder where the plentiful wood comes from, unless for some reason (like Lyn’s theory, or scath’s) the highstorms weren’t as strong back then.
Carl @7 – As you say, Sazed/Harmony doesn’t (necessarily) see Hoid as an intruder, but the Vessel writing this letter certainly does. We don’t have any information on how Edgli/Endowment feels about him, so we can’t use that as evidence either way about her authorship. I assume we’ll eventually find out who this is…! In any case, Hoid has apparently been to their Shardworld quite a number of times, which… okay, which tells us absolutely nothing. I just assume that he’s been to every accessible Shardworld as often as there seems to be anything interesting going on, but I honestly don’t know how many of the remaining Shardworlds are accessible, much less have interesting things happening.
Nice catch on the Tines – that’s exactly what they remind me of! It’s just been so long since I read Vinge’s books, I didn’t make the connection.
Re: the armor puffing to mist… I hadn’t realized just how much controversy there is over the source & form of Shardplate until it came up in one of the facebook groups today. Someone linked a 17th Shard debate, and… wow. I was stunned at some of the arguments. Granted, I thought most of the arguments against spren forming the Plate were kind of weak and mostly informed by antipathy toward the idea, but there’s a lot of strong feeling! Huh.
Joyspren @8 – Good catch on the difference between Fen’s “summons” vs. Dalinar’s; I hadn’t noticed that. So apparently even that kind of detail is adjusted to suit the receiver of the vision.
noblehunter & dptullos @several – It’s a weird situation they’re in, isn’t it? Alethkar is the only nation with a significant standing army, and even they aren’t as strong as they used to be. Given their history – both recent and past – any ruler would rightly have serious qualms about letting an Alethi army inside their borders, much less their capital cities. At the same time, given the Everstorm and the behavior of the parshmen, it’s pretty obvious that they have to do something to protect themselves. Quite a dilemma.
If I hadn’t done so last weekend, it would definitely be time to rewatch “Coco”.
Hey, I know several of us will be at Worldcon. (That is, I know at least two of us will, but I’d bet it’s more.) Should we have some kind of meetup? I don’t mean on the schedule (which is too late to change) but maybe a lunch or dinner?
@17: I think Brandon confirmed that the first letter was from Endowment and the second was from Autonomy.
Ah sweet vacations, but it makes me slightly out-of-touch.
My main thoughts on this week’s chapter were how pleased I was for Fen to voice out the exact thoughts I ended up having all the while I was reading OB. Why Dalinar? Why him? From my perspective, being a Radiant is a reward, the ultimate achievement you reached by being such an outstanding individuals sprens have no choice but to grant you their sacred bound and yet, Dalinar was chosen. We had the discussion before as to whether or not Dalinar deserves a redemption given his actions: no need to have it again, we were heavily disagreeing on it. Or I was mostly disagreeing with mostly everyone else. No bother, but this week’s chapter does raise the question, if Dalinar “deserves” redemption because “he feels sorry”, does he also deserve to be granted the most amazing spectacular powers Roshar has ever known? Does he deserve this gift? He might not deserve life imprisonment (let’s ignore further debate on this one), but does he deserve to be a Radiant?
For my part, this has always been the crux of the problem: Dalinar Kholin’s past actions are too horrifying for myself to accept he deserves the great honor of being a Radiant. Hence, just like Fen here, I asked myself the same question: Why him? And why should the world accept it? Granted, the world had no choice but to accept it because the Alethi are the only ones having an actual army able to fight. It doesn’t however chase down the feeling it shouldn’t have been him, but likely it is him because no one else could have kept Alethkar united.
I also need to ask myself the same questions as Alice, who else received those visions? We know Gavilar did, despite having turned his own land into a bloodbath for a unity only he wanted. Despite my disapproval of Dalinar’s actions, I must admit he did turn out being a better choice than Gavilar who I wouldn’t trust with my dog for more than 5 minutes. Who else?
I suspect there were others. Perhaps even the Sunmaker. I suspect every great conqueror probably got them and might have use them as “reasons” to keep on invading other countries. If this is true, then this makes the whole concept of Radiants terribly dangerous and not great at all: if men like Gavilar are welcomed into their ranks, then they are not the saviors of mankind, but part of the problem. If for one Kaladin, we get one Gavilar, then I can see why the world ended hating the Radiants.
@21 – But spren are not attracted to morality. They are attracted to people who have cracks in their spiritweb and who closely follow the Ideals of the spren’s order. That leaves room for all manner of sins. Pattern, for instance, is fascinated by truth and lies and doesn’t seem to be troubled by morality. Dustbringers, from what we can gather, are real pieces of work themselves. So the fact that Dalinar was a horrible human being before the visions doesn’t really factor into a spren bond. I think his commitment to oaths is what makes him a Bondsmith. At least, that’s what the Stormfather seems to care about (though he does start to become troubled by the morality of various actions once he bonded Dalinar).
@21 Gepeto
Actually from the way the Radiant makes it sound in the vision, becoming a Radiant is not a reward. It is a burden. It is a great responsibility undertaken by sacrificing yourself for others (whether that sacrifice is mental, emotional, or physical). I think the Shin’s view on warriors encapsulates this. Those that take are lesser than those that create. Radiants serve so others do not have to bear the pain and trauma of war. If gaining powers is the only metric in which to judge if something is a reward, then I think the Heralds would like a word with you lol.
@21 Gepeto: Alethkar was supposed to be the country that kept the art of warfare honed between desolations, It might be that the leader of Alethkar automatically gets the visions no matter what they were like, which would explain Gavilar. But then why Dalinar and not Elhokar? I wonder if it was because Dalinar was they one actually in charge.
necessary_eagle @20 – So I finally was able to get creative with my searching, and Brandon has confirmed it in essence, but not by name: he said that the letters are all from Shards we know, and that we have seen the world of the first author. That pretty much proves Edgli as the first author, but he’s never come right out and said yes, the first letter is from Edgli. The Coppermind needs an update on that.
Gepeto @21 and the rest – Not that I really want to dig up old arguments, but you mentioned “whether or not Dalinar deserves a redemption given his actions.” I have no answer to this directly, but it’s worth mentioning that in the orthodox Christian understanding, no one ever deserves redemption; it’s always a gift you really don’t and can’t deserve, but which results in truly repenting of your previous sins. That said, I’m not sure what the LDS church teaches on the subject, but I’m sure Brandon is aware of the concept. Whether or not he chose to write it into his universe is another question entirely: does he intended for people to get what they deserve, or does he intend to grant (some of) them redemption despite what they deserve? I don’t think we can answer that. (Side note: given how I feel about Dalinar vs. Moash, I can’t even define what I want to see! And he’ll write it how he chooses no matter what I want. #noredemptionforMoash)
And there you hit The Big Snag – the one that made the Stormfather so reluctant to bond with Dalinar. Humans are fallible, untrustworthy creatures. They make conflicting vows. They break vows when they think there’s a good reason, but “good reason” is a very subjective thing. I think most of us unthinkingly assume that being granted the position of Radiant is a reward, because we’d like only good people to have those awesome powers. I suspect that Brandon is playing off that assumption, but has also been giving us hints that we’re wrong. The Radiants are given great power, and also great responsibility, but they aren’t made less human (or not much). Depending on the Order, we might see the bond as giving them an “extra conscience” to keep them from becoming too corrupted by all that power (see Kaladin), but they’re still subject to judgement errors, prejudice, and all those other human failings (see also Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Jasnah, Malata…).
We haven’t had that expectation on other worlds. In Mistborn, where genetics determined your ability, you used it to the benefit of your House (or yourself); no character qualifications applied. In Warbreaker; even though they didn’t have a lot of awesome magic powers, the Returned were shown to be petty and selfish most of the time, and anyone with money could become an Awakener and use the power totally for their own ends. In Elantris, it seemed to be pretty random (though it’s been a while since I read it), but there was a history of socially-enforced expectation that if you suddenly received these powers, you used them for good, until suddenly the whole thing became a curse. The Stormlight Archive is really the first world where the setup looks like it should be merit-based, and something in us really wants it to be so. I guess we’ll have to wait and see where he goes with this. For now, I’m hoping to continue to see Radiants strive to be worthy of their calling, whether they deserved it or not. (Teft, I’m looking at you!)
@25 Wetlandernw
Very well said :)
This chapter is a great one. I love how Dalinar casually mentions that the Midnight Essence creatures are walking on all sixes the way we would say all fours.
The Midnight Mother is just so creepy. I wonder how close she needs to be to send out her creations, do they remain where sent until killed, does she have to reabsorb the ones that aren’t or do they just puff away, etc. So many questions!!
Radiants are broken people who are limited by their oaths. And they are expected to fight monsters. Why should being a Radiant be desirable? You get some cool powers, but pay a high price.
@25 Wetalndernw
First, I agree with Scath that I really like how you explained the various magic systems and how “worthiness” does (or in most cases does not) play a role.
Second, while not wanting to start a huge religion discussion, I would say that from my experience Mormons would say both that everyone “deserves” redemption and no one does. Everyone, because that’s whole reason for Christ’s atonement; it was done so that everyone could be saved because everyone is loved. No one, because nothing we do makes us worthy of it/ we can’t save ourselves. But overall, I would say that the main message you would find is that everyone deserves a shot at redemption.
Except Moash.
@23: I think you are putting the finger on the crux of the problem, at least for me as a reader: I do view becoming a Radiant as a honor, an achievement, a greatness and yes, a reward. Granted, it may be my view is totally wrong and twisted by my personal expectations on what it means to earn magic, but I’ll admit the idea magic is earned and awarded, as opposed to inherited as it often is the case within fantasy, but not given to people who deserve it kind of hurt my internal set of beliefs.
@25: We had a huge debate on the notion of “deserving” a redemption or not a few weeks back, I think this was while you were away in vacations. It was very active and not all of us agreed.
I am not a religious individual, so I do not feel qualify to comment on the teachings of any religion, but I really enjoy the dilemma in between deserving and receiving a redemption. Our past conversation has highlighted each one of us had very different views on the matter, some believed accepting the wrongness of past actions is enough to grant redemption while I have been arguing a redemption can only be granted after punishment is properly given within the right proportion, given the offense. Of course, this led to all sort of tangential talks of who did wrong and who didn’t, but in the end it boils down to how us, various readers, felt about Dalinar now being a Bondsmith given the fact he is responsible for the Rift.
You say this:
And yes, this is totally how I personally feel. I WANT magic to be a reward because, perhaps for the first time, I am reading a work of fantasy where magic is awarded and not genetic nor random. Within SA, there is an element of worth involved within the sprens choosing you though, as we also discussed, not so much as sprens are attracted to ideas not moral.
The Radiants are given great powers and they have great responsibilities, but they aren’t the only ones with great responsibilities.Throughout my re-read of OB, I noticed how characters such as Navani and Adolin often have greater responsibilities than the Radiants without having the advantage of the greater powers. At times, it felt like the Radiants particular conditions allowed them the opportunity to fail over and over again while Navani and Adolin were asked to stay strong, to not falter, to not break down, to not freeze, to take over without really having the means to change the outcome much. Hence, I felt they had the greater responsibility whereas the Radiants always had their way to wiggle out of it starting with Shallan spending half the book running away from her responsibility which is accepted as she has “a broken mind”, continuing with Dalinar doing the same because he cannot bear the truth behind his past which is accepted because he is “broken”, going with Kaladin who cannot accept he cannot save everyone which is also accepted because he has PTSD… But Navani and Adolin…. what’s their excuse? None. They can’t fail. They do not have the power nor the merit nor the fame, but they are the one who cannot fail. Navani is the one who makes the coalition work, who holds it together when Dalinar goes out drinking again. Adolin is the one who basically carries our group out of Kholinar, who stays focus despite seeing his cousin’s dead body, who stays strong and who takes care of giving out orders to normal people as Dalinar had forgotten not every fighting force was a Radiant.
I have thus become very conflicted over the Radiants. I do however hope they will live up to be worthy of their oaths and powers, I can’t say I feel they have all been, so far.
On the matter of Moash, ah Moash… I really want to write great many long posts on Moash as I SO changed my mind on him during my re-read.
@28: Adolin is also expected to fight monsters and he doesn’t have the powers he needs to prevail and/or even survive without Renarin being near-by. He’s got the short-hand of the deal, not the Radiants.
@30 Gepeto
I guess the difference of the opinion comes down to our preference in narrative regarding powers. I personally love magic systems. However, I feel in a narrative, superpowers being viewed as a reward is damaging. The reward is basically control over others. You are stronger, better, or what have you. That is why what interests me more is when powers cause more problems than what they solve. Brandon has spoke at length about limitations on powers make them more interesting than the powers themselves. Wetlandernw mentioned with great power comes great responsibility. For anyone that knows comic books, that is Spider-man’s creed from Uncle Ben. What I have always loved about that superhero is his powers make his life worse. Not better. He is poor and barely scrapes by. His powers do not earn him money like Tony Stark (his intelligence). He has to work at a newspaper as a photographer because it allows him to be at numerous places at all hours but still maintain a job. His powers do not help his relationships. Frequently because he is off saving someone he is seen as unreliable, and duplicitous, resulting in one failed relationship after another. His powers do not make his family proud of him or love him. His Aunt May, who is pretty much his mother figure and the most important person to him in this world, hates and reviles Spider-man. Aunt May believes the Daily Bugle that Spider-man is a thief and a criminal. Imagine trying to honor the memory of a deceased loved one, and by doing so, the single person you love and respect most unknowingly hates you. Yet he does it anyway. That for me speaks miles for his character, and truly shows him to be a hero to admire. My father conversely loves Superman. Now the same reasoning I gave can be applied to Superman, but my father likes him for a different reason. My father’s favorite scene in Superman Returns, is when Superman brings the entire plane down safely in the baseball field, rips off the door, and as everyone gasps to see him, he looks directly at Lois Lane and says “are you ok Lois?”. Why does he love this moment? In his words “Now that’s POWER!”. This view my father holds does not cause me to admire Superman. It does not cause me to look up to him. Instead it only causes me to see a being with abilities far beyond me, do as he or she wishes and all I can do is stand by and say “ok”. Now as I said, there is a ton of complexity and depth to Superman that I could go into, but this illustration is using my father’s view, and Gepeto’s understanding of a power reward system. So for me powers should not be a “reward”. They should be a burden that a character has to choose to take up. That they have to sacrifice something of themselves each time they use it. Otherwise what is the point? Power for power sake? If I am a good boy, I can blast lasers from my eyes? That does not sound like a reward system I would like to read about.
I’ll take a small risk and just add that redemption is never something that one deserves. The mere act of doing something that requires redeeming means that you don’t deserve it if it happens. Redemption is a mercy, an act of beneficence despite what you deserve, not because of it. If you deserve a good outcome, then you don’t actually need redemption for you are already righteous. The same is true of forgiveness, as the fact that you did something that requires someone else to forgive you means that you inherently cannot deserve that forgiveness.
Regarding the letter, it occurs to me that a Shard based on the idea of Autonomy might well be the one most likely to resent interference from outside players. After all, autonomy is all about self-rule, and somebody like Hoid who meddles constantly and in everything would be abhorrent to the very embodiment of independence.
@@@@@ 31″If I am a good boy, I can blast lasers from my eyes” you probably meant Superman there., but i jumped straight to Cyclops force beams( talk about powers not being a reward)
@33 calicodisko
LOL. Cyclops is a perfect example. Totally get you are joking regarding Superman, but this made me want to further elaborate, so get ready for me to be even more wordy! yay! lol. Like I said I think it comes down to interpretation where I see things one way, and Gepeto (and my father in the example I gave) see things another way. For instance with Superman he actually wouldn’t be “I am a good boy, so I can blast lasers from my eyes”. Superman has to walk through a world as if it is made of glass. Every moment of his life is holding back, and that like Spider-man, makes his life harder. The reason he holds back are the values his parents instilled in him at a young age. Again, power is not a reward, it is a responsibility. A responsibility that prevents him from having a “normal” human life or a “normal” kryptonian life. It prevents him from having meaningful relationships. It prevents him from pursuing his own life goals. It prevents him from feeling understood or like he belongs anywhere. Yet he does it anyway.
I see a lot of people talking about how power is a heavy burden, and that’s true. There are real costs to having power.
There are also real costs to not having power. For example, if you’re not a Radiant, you die when someone stabs you. You can’t instantly heal from injury or illness by absorbing Stormlight. You can’t fly.
Plenty of ordinary people have to bear the same burdens as the Knights Radiant, without any of the powers that come from a spren bond.
I admire the characters who refuse to kneel to the returned Radiants, who point out that the old Orders failed and abandoned mankind. I’m not in favor of some kind of magocracy, where everyone just obeys the people with magical powers. Ultimately, spren judgement isn’t any better than human judgement; it’s different without being superior. The approval of a spren in no way qualifies someone to lead.
@31: I need to write it: LOL. Why? Because I swear, I almost nearly quote Spiderman’s uncle when I wrote my previous post to illustrate one way of seeing things. Of course, not being American, I wasn’t raised with the traditional comic books: my references are different, but I get what you mean. I definitely agree how we see things speaks of ourselves as individuals and there cannot be no wrong answers here.
Do I want powers to be awarded for the sake of powers? Not really…. But I loved the idea of people earning the right to have those powers which I thought would be the main discourse in SA. I was wrong. It isn’t. A lot of our current crop of Radiants do not seem like people who deserved it, who earned it. Is it a burden? Yes, but I felt this burden was one our current crop of Radiants managed to toss away at their convenience, building up their excuses on their “broken past” and yes I do understand this is exactly what Brandon has intended to write. It doesn’t however shove away my feelings some of those characters haven’t earned it. And some who didn’t get the powers probably deserved it more.
And yes, now I finished my re-read, I will say something astonishing: Lopen deserved it more than Teft.
@35: Yes. You voice out my personal thoughts when you say regular people have to bear burden too which is equivalent to the Radiants without having super-powers to back them up. I mentioned how I felt Navani and Adolin were such characters, characters asked to perform at all times, characters not being allowed the chance to fail nor to stumble as they don’t have excuses for it like our Radiants do and yet… they do not have the capacity to fight to evil. Adolin’s inner thoughts of how he can’t fly or his heart-breaking acceptance he will die no matter what he does really puts things into perspective. Without Renarin arriving twice, on cues, Adolin would be dead.
Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallan, they may have powers, a broken past and responsibilities, but they are also allowed to fail without consequences, to stumble without consequences and to rise up from mistakes because as long as they hold stormlight, they cannot die. Ask Adolin how he felt after the thunderclast trashed him and yet he still tried to stand up. He knew he would die. He knew he couldn’t fight it and yet he still tried. So why do we believe the Radiants have the greater responsibilities?
So yes, regular people have as many responsibilities as the Radiants do, sometimes even more, but they do not have the power nor the healing. And yes, I do admire those having the strength not to bow down to the Radiants, people like Fen and sometimes Navani. People who are able to say those Radiants perhaps did not deserve it or worst, people saying those Radiants do not have exclusivity on suffering: their pain does not matter more than other people’s pains.
And yes, I do not wish for a world where everyone bows down to the Radiants merely because they have powers, though it is likely to happen. Already, Adolin is bowing down to them and considers them an ideal he will never reach: it breaks my heart.
Re: Dustbringers – It seems odd that an order whose divine attributes include “Obedient” would have a member with the attitudes Malata later displays. Her abilities and spren fit the Dustbringers, but who or what is she obeying?
Re: “all things die twice” – This is interesting in relation to Jezrien (::sob::) later on.
Re: “passion” – IIRC passion is related to Odium, not just the Unmade Neragoul/the Thrill. It will be so interesting if Brandon lets us see how this word and concept have morphed over the millennia, from what they mean to Odium and the Fused to what they mean in “superstition” in Thaylenah and some of the other nations and people groups; I expect there to be quite a variety in what contemporary Rosharans mean when they say the word “passion(s).”
Re: Shardplate formed from spren – I’m not involved in any controversy about this, but now that we know the source of Plate, it has me wondering about other things. Before this, I had always wondered at how similar the descriptions of the armor were to the way carapace of the animals is described: in several instances in TWoK and WoR, it is identical. So in the past I had wondered if Plate had an organic (animal) origin. But now I wonder if the carapace of, say, a Chasmfiend isn’t somehow formed from spren or supported by spren – we know there are spren involved, but not specifically related to the creature’s shell. Alternately, the spren might just pattern the Plate they create from models available to them on Roshar, which would be the animals with carapace. So interesting!
#25 @Wetlandernw: well said.
#36, Gepeto: notice that Teft doesn’t manage to say his Third Oath until he stops worrying about himself so much? He explicitly takes the Oath, which he doesn’t feel he deserves, to save his friends. Same for Kaladin, and in a less-flashy way for Lopen: they speak Oaths in order to save someone else. Shallan is shown as not thinking about anyone but herself when she speaks the Truth about killing her mother last volume, but Pattern leads into it by talking about how the people need a Radiant.
Radiant is a job. It’s more like “hired as a police officer” than “awarded a medal.”
#37, @aggie1
Consider Nalan/Nale/Nin … his attributes are “Just and Confident”. He has spent millennia being unjust (judicially murdering potential Radiants) and he is so lacking in confidence that he (pretends to) subsume his judgement in another person’s. (His Third Oath was to Ishar, right? Who is clearly mad, but for some reason Nin thinks he’s the only remaining sane Herald?) I think folks are taking the in-world beliefs about these attributes too seriously. One suspects that they’re goals, not descriptions.
@37: Malata is obeying the Diagram. I think this is the fall-out for the Dustbringer, they tend to obey others. They have little or no moral compass. They are followers and, as such, they can be made to follow the wrong people.
@38: The reason I ended up finding Lopen more deserving (and I am biting my own cheek just writing this) is because he is the unlikely Radiant. He is the Radiant who had to work to get his spren’s attention: it didn’t just happen like this. He didn’t chafe at it nor try to deny it. I mean, there is something incredibly frustrating when someone earns something you personally want really badly only to state how they never wanted it, how unhappy they are they have gotten it.
For instance, let’s make a metaphor. I’m a runner. I’ve been training for two years to reach my half-marathon time objective and yet, I regularly stumble on people who barely train at all and meet MY objective without actually needing… to work for it. It is frustrating. They don’t care. They weren’t even trying. They just thought a half-marathon sounded like fun, they train minimally and they do it, faster than I can do it.
I read Teft/Lopen in the same manner. Teft never wanted to be a Radiant. He cries, protests and rebels every step along the way and, next to him, you have Lopen who really wants it. Who works hard to get it, who tries everything he can think of to make it happen and yeah, it ultimately happens, but in a very low key moment. He doesn’t get a big Teft moment.
Hence, I ended up feeling Lopen deserved it more because he worked harder for it, he wanted it harder whereas Teft just got it because.
So this goes back once again to myself feeling when sprens chooses you, it is so much more satisfying when, as a reader, I feel the character earned it, deserved it.
@@@@@ 30 Gepeto I don’t think we read the same book, I can’t remember a place where Navani and Andolin where under different expectations from the rest.
@@@@@ 39 Gepeto Firstly, Lopen is not a radiant yet ( he is on his second ideal). I also think the lack of want should be more of a qualifier than the want.
@40: I didn’t say they were under different expectations, I said they had as many expectations as the other Radiants without getting the benefit of stormlight nor surgebinding.
Navani is expected to make the coalition work, to make it hold together despite Dalinar being locked in a room, drunk. The coalition would have never happened if it weren’t for her. She is not allowed to fear for her son nor to crumble down: she has to stay strong because Dalinar, the Radiant, won’t. And yeah, Dalinar has a broken past and so on, but this doesn’t change the fact he’s not the only one who has tasks to accomplish while having to deal with hard stuff.
Adolin is expected to save Kholinar, to rescue Kaladin/Shallan and company. When Shallan is indecisive, when Kaladin goes catatonic, Adolin has to save their asses despite seeing the corpse of his cousin. He is not allowed to be affected by the events, to grief nor to mourn his fallen city: he must take over with the oppressing hand of responsibility, his own words. He’s also responsible to manage the armies of four princedoms. He has more men under him than Kaladin.
My point was, while it is generally true with great powers come great responsibilities, the Radiants hardly are the only individuals with great responsibilities and sometimes, some regular people even have more than some Radiants. For instance, shall we compare the responsibilities Renarin has next to either Navani or Adolin? Or any unnamed army general or any other Highprince?
For Lopen, there has been on-going discussions as to when one should be classified as a Radiant, but whether or not Lopen is one is not particularly relevant to the current discussion as he does have a spren and he did say oaths. As an individual, I value hard work and effort, I do not value being handed over super-powers just because nor do I believe those who do not want to work for it deserve it more. I find it is the opposite: those who work hard for it deserve it more. Effort. As some point, effort’s got to be rewarded, but this is if we consider surgebinding is a reward. Shallan sure thinks it isn’t.
The idea “not wanting” something makes you more deserving never sat well with me.
@42 Gepeto
What benefit of stormlight/surgebinding Dalinar has in this situation? How abilities to speak different languages and combine realms can help him with realization that his entire life, his personality, all false? It makes no sense for me. There is no way Radiant abilities can help him go through this.
Broken people indeed have more pressure on them.
Re: The Midnight Mother’s creatures in the vision – they are not imitations, like we see her making in Urithiru. I can’t remember where, but at some point in Oathbringer, it explicitly says that she started copying the creatures around her after many years of existence. The creatures in the vision are not these copies. I imagine that Odium provided the blueprint for the creatures in the vision, or it’s just somehow part of the spren’s natural being (maybe we’ll understand that better once we know what Sja-Anat meant them being made and then unmade).
@43 lordruler
Dalinar is broken because he broke himself. He chose to become a warlord and a mass murderer, and he finally went so far that he couldn’t deny the horror of what he had become. So he became an alcoholic to escape from the pain, and finally turned to Cultivation to erase his past.
Dalinar has magical healing and the ability to speak multiple languages. Those help with a lot of problems, just not with the fact that he’s a terrible human being who tried to forget what he’d done.
@Gepeto
Don’t have a chance to truly write out my thoughts, but had a quick follow up. Your earlier point was that magic powers were a reward. The powers are a burden that the radiants undertake to handle their own responsibilities. Dalinar’s responsibilities are different than Navani’s and Adolin’s. Shallan’s are different than Dalinar’s, Kaladin’s, Navani’s, and Adolin’s. Again comparing them does not benefit anyone. All it becomes is another “what about Adolin!” What does the responsibilities that Adolin handles as a person have to do with the responsibilities that Dalinar handles? Nothing. They are two different people with different responsibilities. Why does it have to be a contest? They are each characters with their own problems and failings. Adolin makes do with the resources he has, just like everyone else. I really don’t understand what this accomplishes. Lets say we all agree with you and say Dalinar is a piece of crem, and doesn’t deserve anything in life. Adolin deserves everything, he is a great guy. Give him all the things. I do not know how that causes us to understand the chapter better, nor delve deeper in understanding the book and the characters within. Adolin won the best guy ever award. Yay.
The first time the Midnight Essence vision cropped up in WoK, I thought that sort of thing would start happening a lot in the lead up to the Desolation. But nothing like that happened. Gavilar had the visions, but then he was assassinated, and as far as we know no one else started having visions until Dalinar years later. Then there was Renarin’s countdown and suddenly the Everstorm. I really was expecting more weird monster attacks before that happened.
Does anyone know why the visions took a 5 year hiatus?
@47 I don’t KNOW, but my strong belief is that Stormfather just takes his time picking people since he resents being tied up in human affairs.
@45 That doesn’t answer my question.
@46 Agree. Adolin praising is so annaying. Every week: Shallan doesn’t deserve care, but Adolin! Dalinar, how dare you lose control while Adolin always has everythung under control!
Could never imagine before that it’s possible to start disliking fictional character after someones comments. It’s possible now I see.
@43: Being a Radiant gives Dalinar the credibility he wouldn’t have gotten otherwise. The ability to combine the realms also gives him the capacity to recharge the stormlight at will which is bond to become a crucial skill within the battles to come. The ability to learn languages on the spot is also part of what enables him to make his coalition work. The Azish were impressed he had taken the time to learn their language, no doubt believing it was an effort spread on a long time period.
It doesn’t make him a better human being nor does it erase his past deeds, but it gives him the capacity to endorse the responsibilities he was given. Paradoxically, it also grants him all the excuses he wants (even if he doesn’t want them) to go get drunk once he remembers instead of keeping on working on his coalition. No one, literally no one is going to hang it over him because he has suffered in the past for his actions: Navani is not allowed the same. She has to make the coalition work even if she lacks Dalinar’s powers.
Of all characters, Dalinar has the greatest responsibilities, but he also has the greatest powers (joining the three realms seems very powerful). He rebuilt temples, he got stabbed on purpose to make a point: he managed to have the world change their views on him all of this because he had those powers. Without his surgebinding, Dalinar would have never succeeded at building a working coalition because he would have never been able to demonstrate his powers in ways which made him sympathetic to others despite his past.
My point was however to state the Radiants are not the only characters having responsibilities and other characters also have a lot of them without having surgebinding and magical healing to back them up. The Radiants powers do not necessarily come with additional responsibilities, but they often give them the edge they need to prevail, a luxury other people are not given.
Hence, I feel it is a gift they have been given. A chance. An opportunity to change.
I whole-heartily disagree broken people have more pressure onto them. Adolin/Navani have more pressure than most other characters without being broken. Renarin has about the least amount of pressure of all people and yet he is broken. Pressure is not something which comes with being broken, it comes with expectations others have on you. Are the expectations greater for the Radiants? Perhaps they will eventually be, I can’t say they necessarily were in OB.
@45: I agree. Dalinar is broken because of himself and no one else. He bears this responsibility and even he admits he was given a chance to change, a gift very few people will ever receive within their lifetime. And he may not have deserved it, but he got it anyway.
Radiant abilities perhaps do not help dealing with his past, but they sure give him the edge he needed to win the battle. Other people needed an edge to and they didn’t get it, they had to work without it and accept their fragility, accept they will die within this Desolation.
@46: This has nothing to do with Adolin, this has everything to do with the talk of “great powers comes with great responsibilities”. I merely highlighted how the Radiants did not always have the greatest responsibilities, but they always have the greatest powers thus making it look like an amazing gift indeed. Of course, Adolin is one example of this, I believe I have repetitively said Navani was another one.
I don’t know where you get the rest of your rant comes from: just because I mentioned Adolin’s name does not mean he is the topic of discussion.I also mentioned Lopen and Navani, but you insist on focusing on Adolin. The whole conversation was about whether or not Radiants powers were a gift or a curse: some argued it was a curse because they had more responsibilities. I disagreed. It never was about whether or not Adolin was a great person. You decided it had to be it because I wrote it. Shall I invent myself a new name and start posting under it for others to stop trying to ridicule me each time they disagree just because I wrote it?
And this whole conversation started up because I supported Fen’s reluctance to accept Dalinar has been chosen to be a Radiant. Hence, it was totally relevant to the chapter at hand.
And yes, the discussion as to whether or not Dalinar deserved it will always be relevant. The notion of deserving will always be relevant in a world where you are chosen with a purpose to work the magic. You are free to disagree, but accusations this somehow not relevant to the chapter at hand are not warranted.
@49: Oh please… Reducing thousand of words conversation to one sentence to make it sound silly and ridiculous, on purpose, is about the cheapest way to try to win an argument. I will take for granted other readers are smarter than to fall for such a cheap shot.
@50
Again. That doesn’t answer my question. I answered on this statement of you:
“I said they had as many expectations as the other Radiants without getting the benefit of stormlight nor surgebinding.
Navani is expected to make the coalition work, to make it hold together despite Dalinar being locked in a room, drunk.”
I’ll repeat again: How “benefit of stormlight/surgebinding” can help Dalinar, locked in a room and drunk. Sure, powers are helpful during battle and during negotiation, but how it can be helpful in this exact situation? You say Dalinar cannot break down because he’s a Radiant with great powers and great responsibility. How about the fact he’s also a human being? Should he merge three realms sitting in the room and heal his PTSD? Where’s the logic? If these characters breaks down didn’t happen, these books would be impossible to read. I don’t want to read about steady strong always under control characters ( oh hi Adolin!), I want to read about humans who fall many times before thay stand up and move forward, about humans who fight their demons.
@51: His status as a Radiant allows him to recover from the political blunder it was. It allowed others not to pass judgment on it. Had someone else have the same behavior, they would have struggled to recover their political advantage. Dalinar can get away with it because he is a Radiant, because everyone is willing to forgive him for everything.
I did not say Dalinar cannot break, but I did say the fact he is a Radiant gives him the opportunity to break down and recover, a luxury not everyone has had within the story. It is all about status. Not exactly the same.
I will not comment on your views of Adolin even if I believe they are dead wrong: I might make you hate him even more because apparently reading my posts have this effect on you.
I would suggest not reading them. Hopefully others enjoy them and enjoy the amount of conversation they usually create.
I think Fen is an awesome character for many reasons – she reminds me of Navani whom I adore, she says what she means, and she definitely shows us that the rest of the world has a valid and legitimate fear of Dalinar. I know I would! It is difficult since I love our Dalinar, but that younger one is horrifying to behold. I am in the group who believes that no one ever deserves redemption but that it is available to everyone (this comes from my religious beliefs – it is hard to swallow, but I personally believe it is supposed to be. Humans are not God and cannot see the world just as He does. For those without these beliefs, I am sure the Stormlight themes of redemption are especially difficult.)
I also love Adolin and definitely give him the “best guy ever award”. How could you not love him?!
Back to the chapter at hand – all this discussion about some characters having more pressure, etc. made me think about how the burden/privilege of leadership is distributed currently. We still see the traditional leadership structures (kings, queens, highprinces, generals, etc.) but also now have this “other leader” category for our Radiants. This seems awkward right now since it seems like getting magical powers automatically “levels you up” to be above the traditional leaders in status. I personally think this feeling will lessen as the series progresses and we get more and more Radiants. They can’t all be leaders; we are just seeing the vanguard of each order, people who are being thrust into leadership positions, wanted or not. I think this is one change that will seem natural and normal as the series goes on but which will be a big shift in how we see the Radiant powers (similar to the squire system, for me personally – at first it made the acquisition of spren seem too easy, but it is also completely logical since they would need large numbers of well trained Radiants to fight in the Desolations. It is more a return to the old normal; we are in the new and different time right now.)
@15 Scath
I’m beginning to think that the gemstones used to bond the dead blades are actually fabrials. As revealed earlier, fabrials imprison spren and are then manipulated to achieve the desired result. I think that after the Recreance, the sprenblades had to be imprisoned for them to be used by other than the original oath speaker. This also could be related to the Stormfather talking about dying twice. Once during the Recreance and the second after being forgotten, but they didn’t die the forgetful death because they were imprisoned. It is like them dying again and again every time they are activated/remembered and deactivated.That seems to me as something to scream about. Maybe the 10 heartbeats and the appearance of it misting in and out of existence has something to do with it too.
On a separate but related issue, if a KR held Adolin’s shardblade, would it be screaming or whimpering? I wonder if it is possible to win over, or bring back to full life, a half-dead, or half-alive, sharblade, by embracing and stating the ideals of that spren.
@52 So now it’s about his Radiant status? Previously you wrote about his Radiant powers giving him mysterious benefits. In “Oathbringer” I read, no one is fine with Dalinar. No one. What luxury and benefits are you talking about? These hypocritical world leaders need him to protect them, everything else doesn’t matter. And, of course, no one forgives Dalinar including Dalinar himself.
I’m fine with Adolin, he’s okayish side-character, not a great one, but not a terrible one either, whose little screen time allows me mostly ignore him. After your comments, however, after your holy mission to mention him in every chapter discussion even if he’s completely absent in this exact chapter, to discuss him when his character has nothing to do with discussion subject, to make him look perfect ray of light in this awful world full of broken unstable alcoholics, I’m starting to dislike him.
As for his character, if it was the Worlds End, and I had to choose a person to trust my life, I’d without any doubt choose Dalinar, broken but strong enough to pull himself together and go forward, rather than Adolin who moronically plays with clothes while the city in burning.
#54, @trimack
The narrative makes it clear that the gems on the hilts are needed specifically to bond but not to wield the Blades. You can break the gem, and another person can then pick up and use the Blade, they just have to attach a gem to bond it. I’d say it’s related to how fabrials work, but not identical, but that might just be a terminology thing.
We know Oathbringer’s screaming is moderated when Dalinar holds it. Presumably Mayalaran would shriek at different volumes depending on the situation. Brandon Sanderson has said that it’s possible but very difficult to resurrect a deadeyes.
@55: This will probably be moderated and I apologize in advance to the moderation team for writing it. I will however point out there are three posts who were needlessly aggressive towards my person, posts which have purposefully distorted my argumentation in a ridiculous manner, posts which have decided to make me say things I haven’t intended to say just to make me look bad. This last post has downright accusations made out of someone who hasn’t bothered to contribute much to the discussion up until he found an opportunity to snap at my person.
Hence, if moderation happens, please also moderate posts @46, @49 and @52 because they are responsible for the tone having degraded. I also apologize if I do not merely accept being insulted without replying. I will thus accept every bit of responsibility into this happening, but I will say, as politely as it is possible under the circumstances, what I think of it. I will also point out @49 and @52’s behavior is very similar to a troll, someone snapping at someone else, completely out of context to clear out a vendetta only him is aware of.
So, @59, yes. I know your kind. If you think you are the first one to try to have a bite at me with your ridiculous accusations, think again. You are pleased now, @46 gave you a wide opening to ram into me, to vent out at how my “holy mission” to speak of Adolin. Well, you’ve proven you are completely unable to follow a discussion from beginning to end as you have chosen to summarize my thoughts into punch lines which are completely outside of the truth.
Everyone can distort someone else’s argumentation by removing every single layer of nuance, by removing every single argument and by twisting it around with the sole intention of making the one who wrote it look bad. It however takes a greater person to actually write a decent counter-argumentation. You however are guilty of doing two of the cheapest tricks known to fandom argumentation: taking words out of another discussion, putting them completely out-of-context for the sole purpose of making the one who wrote it appear like an idiotic moron and reducing a lengthy argumentation into one sentence made to sound ridiculous.
Your comments on Adolin demonstrate how your negative bias has made you read the character in a simplistic and dumb way, but I’ll let this discussion happen when we reach those chapters.
And for the record, I do not have a holy mission to speak of Adolin every single week. I never even spoke of the character this week, I mentioned his name because it was relevant to the point I was trying to make (I mentioned other characters name, do I also have a holy mission to speak of Navani? I often speak of her too.) it was @46 who decided it must be it, who distorted my entire post into something it never intended to say just out of spite. I often just mention one thing and others get so riled up in it, they turn into a lengthy discussion.
So hopefully the guilty will read this, if not, I trust the moderation will highlight how rude and inappropriate their behavior were. For my part, I’ll go elsewhere see if I am wanted for the time being. I have no intention to linger here and be insulted nor do I want to have argumentation I spent a lot of time writing being turned to ridicule because other readers are not seeing my point.
I trust other readers are smart enough to make the difference in between someone offering an unpopular well-formulated opinion, an unwarranted rant and a troll.
Gepeto @@@@@ 50. You said “Hence, I feel it [i.e. Radiant powers] is a gift they have been given. A chance. An opportunity to change.” IMO, you forgot one critical aspect that distinguishes the Radiant powers (i.e. the ability to investiture on Roshar) from most other fictional super powers. These powers are not something they are given. The Radiant must earn it. First, a spren must be willing to bond with the Radiant. From what we have seen so far, a human that wanted the ability to investitute cannot force a sapient spren to bond with him/her. The spren is the one who makes the choice. The spren looks for those individuals who share the ideals that the spren may have. The person a highspren seeks may be somebody an honorspren would not seek. Different types of spren may be interested in the same person. But there is also a certain type that each spren will not choose. Second, for the KR to expand in his/her power, he she must swear multiple oaths (or truths, for a Lightweaver). These Oaths are intertwined with the personal growth of the KR. If they are not able to grow and accept themselves (and who they have to become), the person’s power will not increase.
I think the key is that the KR wants to become a better person. Dalinar was not the same person he was in his flashbacks. If he were, I do not think any spren would accept his Oaths. Moreover, I do not think the flashback Dalinar would want to change. It is only after the death of Evi that he wants to change. He starts to drink even more heavily as a way to run from the pain. Yet that he even acknowledges that he did things that need forgiveness is a sign that he wants to become a better person. Otherwise, he would rationalize there was nothing wrong with what he did and it would not bother Dalinar. He started to drink because he did not know a way to obtain that forgiveness. Had he been more religious at that stage in hi life, it is possible that he could have asked for a Vorin ardent to give him absolution. The same way in RL that a priest may give somebody absolution when he or she confesses his/her sin during confession. In desperation, he sought out the Nightwatcher and received his boon/curse. The key was Dalinar wanted to be a better person. He has turned around his life and tried to be a better person. Is Dalinar perfect? No. Has there been some setback? Yes. But I do not think Dalinar was given anything. He earned everything he got (both the good and the bad).
Gepeto @@@@@52. Again, it was not Dalinar’s ability to Surgebind that allowed him to overcome any political mistakes. It was his character. It was Dalinar’s character that allowed him to embrace his pain rather than give it to Odium. It was his character that allowed him to walk into Nergaoul and capture the Unmade. Szeth was not strong enough (mentally) to walk into that. Yet, Lift was. It did not bother her. In Lift’s case, I suspect that her personality is immune to the Thrill. Had Dalinar not have the strength of character to accept his pain and trap Nergaoul (by not succumbing to the Thrill), then King T would have taken control of the Coalition. King T almost got away with his plan and he is not a KR.
lordruler@@@@@ 55. You accuse Gepeto as giving Adolin too much credit. Yet, I think in your post you gave Adolin too little credit. In Kholinar, Adolin did much more than, as you say “play with clothes.” He and Elhokar met with the Brightlords and Brightladies to rally against the Singers, Regals and Fused. The two point of view characters in those chapters were Kaladin and Shallan. As such, the chapters focused on what they were doing. The work Adolin and everybody else (sans Shallan and Kaladin) were done off screen. If all Adolin did was play with clothes, he would not have done what he did during the fight for the palace.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Quick note from the moderator team: Let’s ALL dial back the personal attacks and get back on topic. Vigorous discussion and differences of opinion are perfectly fine, as long as you can express them without insulting each other. The full moderation policy can be found here.
@58: This is essentially what I have been saying, perhaps in different words: a Radiant theoretically needs to earn his powers, but do I feel all chosen Radiants earned them? Nope. I finished my re-read feeling Lopen earned it more than Teft which is odd for me to say this considering how negative I have been over his character in the past. Do I feel Renarin earned his, though in his case we may argue what he got was more of a curse than anything else, but let’s assume Glys was normal, had he earn them? Not really…. Hence, a Radiant do not necessarily earn his powers, it is more a matter of luck, of being in the right place at the right moment and to attract the fancy of a spren even if better candidates probably existed elsewhere in the world. Sure, they have to progress afterwards which kind of make them worthy, but I ended feeling much strongly for Lopen than for Teft once I finished the book the second time around.
We’ve had this discussion before and for me it was important for Fen to say what she says in this chapter: I cannot accept you of all people was chosen to lead the world. I can feel for her, I can understand her just as I can see she has no choice but to trust Dalinar. Even if it turned out being the right decision, I cannot shake the feeling her questioning is perfectly valid and seldom asked within the fandom. Why him? Just because he eventually tried to be a better person, because he seeks redemption? Those are treachery ground we are walking on and I fear not everyone is going to agree.
Thus, I must range myself with Fen here. I have difficulty accepting Dalinar is the man which was chosen for this task. It may be he is right and there was no one else available, but it does not make it easier to swallow.
I also do not feel Dalinar has earned every good things which happened to him, I feel many of those things happened because of his status, because of who he is more than himself. One thing which hit me on the re-read was how Moash was given such a bad set of cards, how different he could have turned out had he been given opportunities too… Everyone believes he does not deserve a redemption and yet everyone believed Dalinar deserved his, despite the Rift. Moash only wanted a better world for people to live in, he was terribly misguided and used by creatures smarter than he is: if he were to have remorse, would readers still believe he doesn’t deserve a redemption?
On the matter of Dalinar, I was referring to him recovering from the political blunder which was him locking himself drunk for days in his room, not his subsequent encounter with Odium. My point was Dalinar is able to get away with a lot because of his status and yes I do think the fact he is a Radiant does play a strong role into it. I am not sure another man would have gotten away I keep thinking Dalinar has been given a lot of leniency.
Of course you are right in saying it was Dalinar’s strength of character, and not his Radiant powers, which ultimately allows his to prevail. all to this honor, but I keep feeling Dalinar is a cat with nine life. He got away with so much in his life and I finished reading this book feeling more sorry for Moash. How odd.
My point was however to say, in light of this chapter, Dalinar gets to have his coalition to start working because of his status as a Radiant: without it, he would have never made it to Thaylenah to fight Odium. That’s what I meant.
On Adolin and clothes: Oh I have some very good comments to write on this subject, but now is not the time. We’ll talk about it, once we reach those chapters, but someone very smart wrote some very good insightful comments on this very topic on Tumblr. It completely changed I was viewing those scenes. It is so rare I stumble on gems on Tumblr, but last winter, I did.
I’m not sure how people can be saying that being a radiant is a disadvantage vs not being a radiant.
Let’s look through a simple example.
Person A and B are both broken. Person A gets the chance to bond with a spren, this offers a chance at redemption, a companion, a very very significant increase in rank (see Kaladin) and healing + powers. Person B gets nothing and has to muddle through life the best they can. Who gets the better deal? How many people living through war, or even life do you think remain unbroken? The reality is the majority of the soldiers and people will be broken in some way or other but only a few get this opportunity. Look at all the other people in Bridge 4, or in the other bridges. How well would Kaladin have dealt with being in Bridge 4 without Syl?
Another example.
Soldier A is “whole” despite fighting in war for 2 years. Solider B has become broken due to his experiences. Soldier B gets a spren bond, as a result he survives an otherwise fatal injury, while Soldier A dies. Who gets the better deal? Whole and dead, or broken but alive and with a STRONG chance at redemption? I say strong, because having this affirmation from OUTSIDE that you are worthwhile is very likely to help. Not to mention status jump, etc.
Finally, I don’t see people addressing Gepeto’s very clear (to me) examples of how being a radiant helped Dalinar with his goal. A normal, broken, man would not have had these abilities.
“The ability to learn languages on the spot is also part of what enables him to make his coalition work. The Azish were impressed he had taken the time to learn their language, no doubt believing it was an effort spread on a long time period.”
And one of my own, His bond with the Stormfather helped him bring Fen into the coalition.
I would like some clear examples of how being a radiant is worse than not being a radiant. Yes, you will usually be broken. But being broken does not make you a radiant.
#58, @AndrewHB:
“You can change. You can become a better person.” I am pretty sure Dalinar agrees with you.
@Gepeto: Of course Fen’s questions about the Blackthorn are valid. This is a Sanderson story, it won’t have simple, obvious answers nor cost-free solutions that are easy and fix everything perfectly. You are also correct that things in this world are not utterly fair and just. Why would you expect that?
Moash is a mirror of Kaladin, their circumstances are deliberately really similar, but Kaladin rose above them and Moash refused to do the right thing, or at least that’s the perception. Thus Moash is condemned because one of the protagonists is seen for hundreds and hundreds of pages doing better.
A general comment: no one is arguing that being a Radiant is not useful, which would be silly. The argument is that on a personal level it is not necessarily pleasant or desirable. (People do desire it, but again people in-world are often wrong. As Teft laments in this book, being a Radiant doesn’t fix his actual person issues.)
This thread made me think: the Nahel bond is not different from making a fabrial. In both cases you entice a spren into a task and then bind it there. The difference is that Radiants are dealing with sapient spren and entice them with reason and emotion instead of (or in addition to) base instinctual drives, but the process is not different. One wonders if Odium can/does compel spren instead of persuade, since at least one (Sja-Anat) is trying to escape him.
Nightheron @@.-@:
Yes, indeed, protection from enemy surge-binding had to be one of the top requirements of whatever process led to creation of living shardplate.
As to Natanatan – indeed, great changes must have happened there at some points for the people’s appearance to change from something so unremarkable that Dalinar had to ask where he was in the vision, to the dramatic and otherworldy bluish skin and white hair of modern inhabitants. I am still very curious re: what that scene between Prince Hatham, his likely world-hopper ardent and a local noble had been about, back in WoK.
I’d also posit that this vision depicts the very beginning of the Ninth Desolation – given how it is called the “Eighth” Epoch and epochs are called “Heraldic”, so it is logical to assume that appearances of the Heralds and attendant Desolations punctuate the boundaries between them. So, it has been more than 3 centuries since the last one and the Heralds are still going pretty strong, which explains the relative prosperity of the settlement. Concerning the abundance of wood, it may not necessarily suggest anything about natural resources in the area at the time – it may just be that they had lots of Soulcasters – both Radiant and fabrials.
I kind of wonder why Chana is featured so prominently in the headers of this chapter, since Fen’s actions fall more in line with Ishar – unifying the people to resist effectively and Jezrien – leadership. Dalinar’s own past performance in this vision was much closer to Chana’s attributes than Fen’s, IMHO. Nale is logical though – Fen is judging Dalinar. I love how it is gradually revealed that what looked like simple intansigeance and stupidity of the other world leaders vis: Dalinar’s warnings and ouvertures actually was rooted in quite sensible reasons to distrust the Alethi in general and him in particular. Though, it must be said that his other faults aside, he was never known for being deceptive in the past… but for the foreign observers he still represented a terrible risk and deservedly so.
@@.-@7:
There is a pretty strong hint in OB that Dalinar’s first vision from the Stormfather was immediately before his meeting with the Nightwatcher. It seems that in the beginning they didn’t come with every highstorm and for a long time Dalinar had trouble remembering their contents. This first time he remembers nothing after waking up. Tantalisingly, there is also mention of a potter having visions during highstorms for a couple of years before his death in the hands of the Silent Gatherers in one of the epigraphs in… WoR, I think.
Gepeto:
I feel you there, but I don’t quite agree with you. People getting showered with rewards and propelled towards greatness against their will and in fact in spite of their continuous attempts to sink back into obscurity, whining “Why MEEE!” the whole time, while the world is ending around them and it is pretty clear that everybody needs to pitch in, led me to a love-hate relationship with Robert Jordan’s WoT and made me allergic to the whole notion that people who don’t want powers or responsibility most deserve them.
However, it is not actually true where the 3 main Radiants of SA are concerned. They have been working and working hard for years at upholding the ideals of their respective Orders, long before they became aware of their Radiancy.
Kaladin had been working hard to protect and lead people since age 15, failing along the way, yet trying again and again until he is completely beaten down when we first see him in a cage. Yes, at that point he would have failed without Syl, but he attracted her due to his previous actions, she wasn’t just bestowed on him.
Shallan’s initial bonding as a child may have been “unearned”, but after recovering from her breakdown at age 13, she continuously worked to inspire people and help them transform into their better selves – under rather heartbreaking circumstances. Then she went into the world, attached herself to Jasnah, took over her mission after her disappearance, etc. Even during the frustrating identity crisis in OB, even when she does her best to disappear in Veil, she still continues contributing her bit – hunting down the Unmade, trying to save Kholinar, saving everybody’s bacon immediately after they unexpectedly get pitched into Shadesmar, etc.
It is also untrue that there are no consequences to them failing, unless you think that the only significant consequences would have been their own deaths.
Dalinar is an edge case, I feel, because it is fairly clear in the climax WoR, IMHO, that the Stormfather wanted and intended for him to fail. He had to pick somebody who fulfilled the letter of Tanavast’s requirements, he had no choice about that, but he purposefully chose the worst prospect(s) that he could get away with. As such, Dalinar earns the bond by beating his spren’s expectations.
Having said that, Dalinar did work hard at changing himself from a berserker uninterested in anything outside the immediacy of combat into a military leader of a current Alethi stamp and still had enough conscience to be horrified by what he did at the Rift – which many of his peers weren’t and wouldn’t have been, break and eventually seek the Nightwatcher’s boon and begin following the Codes and percepts of in-universe WoK. It is also worth noting that he had been able to turn enemies into devoted followers long before he became a Radiant and also had a penchant for performing death-defying stunts to impress people ditto.
I am also dubious re: incredible durability and healing powers of the Radiants and would have preferred if they hadn’t been quite so teflon. I’d have very much liked to see how balance between collaboration and tensions between non-powered leaders and commanders and the newly resurgent Radiants would look like, but after OB I doubt that it will ever be a focus.
I also couldn’t disagree more about Moash – he is a supremely self-centered person who doesn’t ultimately care about anybody else. Treatment of darkeyes only angers him because it reflects on himself – he was never interested in lifting a finger to help them. Nor did he lack opportunities – we have seen that high-status darkeyes can go pretty far and Kholins, of all people, were more open to promoting darkeyes than most. He was certainly limited, unfairly so, but ultimately it was his own anger and poor decisions that prevented him from making something more constructive out of his life, forging connections with other people, etc. even before Roshone happened to his grandparents. If Moash had been a lighteyes, he would have been one of the most rigid and entitled ones, IMHO.
Hmm, wow a whole lot of writing and controversy from a quick type before I had to run out of the house. Looks like I cannot do that in the future for fear of being taken out of context. Going forward I will make a greater effort to type out my replies fully. So first specifically regarding my post. I do not see any insults pointed at Gepeto in my post. The post is there for all to see. I am sorry that Gepeto takes it as an attack, but I was expressing a genuine opinion on not seeing the merit to comparing Navani and Adolin to the main cast. I felt it reduces it to a contest of “who deserves it more” which results in attacking the characters instead of reading and gaining a greater understanding of the characters and chapters we are currently reading. I mentioned Adolin because he was brought up in view of this comparison, last chapter’s comparison, the chapter before that and before that. I understand lordruler’s frustration as although as per the website, we can discuss the whole book when discussing the current chapter, I personally did not see the link as there was no mention of Adolin present in this chapter. Now I would never tell Gepeto what she is allowed or not allowed to discuss, but at the same token I think I am allowed to state how I feel when I think a topic matter has turned distasteful. Now to be clear, when I say distasteful, I mean when it involves attacking, and criticizing characters that other people enjoy. Now of course we dislike some characters vs others, just see the “F**k Moash” hashtag and there is nothing wrong with that. It just saddens me to see another thread go down the “this person has it worse than this person” when I personally do not think it benefits a deeper understanding of the novel. I could be wrong in this feeling, and clearly Gepeto disagrees but I do not feel what I wrote was trolling. I did not write the original post nor this one to reignite emotions nor cause any moderation to become involved. I wrote it because just as Gepeto has a right to state her opinion, so do I. But more importantly, in keeping with the moderation policy, it is my choice to not engage Gepeto on the subject matter she chooses to discuss and that is what I shall do. Others obviously can feel free to do so at their own inclination, but I do not see anything productive in understanding a series I love, and a novelist I enjoy by continuing such discourse with Gepeto. So now to reply to the other posts.
@47 nightheron
I would guess that the reason the visions subsided is once Galivar died, the Stormfather began to look for another possible canidate. Since Gavilar’s death to me seems to be the catalyst for Dalinar to try and rebuild his life after Evi’s death, I would view that as the reason the Stormfather began to reach out to Dalinar. We also do not know how long the Stormfather had been sending visions to Gavilar (though it might be hinted from the change of tone with Gavilar in the flashback chapters), so it could be that it takes years before the Visions begin when a person is chosen. But a lot of what I wrote is just my personal conjecture based on what information we have.
@53 Evelina
I whole heartily agree Fen is awesomeness! She is the first character in the greater theater of the world war that smashes a lot of Dalinar’s illusions on what it means to be a ruler. The Blackthorne commands, and everyone just follows. If they do not follow they are forced. This results in miles of growth for Dalinar. His old tried and true manner in warfare no longer applies. He flounders, but each time he fails he rises again a better man. I feel Fen’s matter of fact way of speaking, and genuineness is really what sets off this diplomatic growth in Dalinar. I think it would be epic if she becomes a radiant, and I wonder which order she could become :)
@54 trimack
Hmmm, interesting theory. Personally I disagree but I see where you are coming from. For myself, I am not fully sure what the gemstone accomplishes to aid the person bonding the deadblade because it is commented on later that (if I recall correctly though it is hazy) that once it is bonded the gemstone need not remain in the hilt. I do know for sure that as per Brandon, shattering the gemstone does not break the bond. When we see that done, it was more for fanfare than any actual practical application. Where my memory gets hazy is trying to recall if the gemstone is still needed to be able to dismiss and resummon the blade, or if it is as I recall and once you bond it, it is no longer needed at all. So in summation, personally your theory doesn’t feel right to me, but I got nothing alternative to offer, but I wish you luck with your theory!
As to what would happen if another Radiant held Maya, I feel she would scream. The reason Oathbringer whimpered instead of screaming was because of specifically how Dalinar acted with it while bonded to the blade, so it does not hate him specifically as much. I think if Kaladin conversely held Oathbringer, it would scream as loudly as the blade did in the arena when Kaladin first touched a shardblade. At least that is my rationale.
@56 Carl
Ah, thank you for confirming my hazy recollection! I didn’t have a chance to dig in to confirm it.
@61 saywot
I will be very careful with what I write because I do not want it to seem like I am replying to Gepeto through replying to others. So please all take this as purely focused on this response directly to saywot. Carl puts succinctly at post 62 the crux in how I feel regarding radiancy. As they will be fighting a war, let us look at our own world. If you enlist into the military, you will get training that makes you stronger, and more capable than the average person on the street. You may be given a gun, or a tank, or even a fighter jet. These things provide you with power to make your life easier (though the easier part is unfortunately ending a person’s life, though it could be said the tank protects you from harm, and the jet allows you to enjoy the freedom of flight). However with these powers provided to you, you will be on a battlefield. You will see your friends die, frequently in horrific manners. After your tour, it is very likely you will not return home the way you left. You will more than likely return with some form of mental, emotional, or physical trauma. It could be PTSD from watching a friend die. It could be you lost your legs from a land mine. You could even lose your life. Because of the “powers” provided to you, you are put into harmful situations that others would not have been put into. The greater the powers, the greater the danger and responsibility to use them. That is why to me the Radiant in the novel speaks of it as a burden. By taking up these powers, you are sacrificing something of yourself, so others do not have to experience it. So others can remain safe and free from such pain. So there is an example of how those powers come at a disadvantage. The more power you have, the greater the sacrifice, the greater the foe you face.
@62 Carl
I agree on all points
@63 Isilel
Hmmmm, I was going to say good point as the abundance of wood could be the product of soulcasters, but then I had a thought. I believe the reason Dalinar mentioned it being odd was because whole houses build of wood would not last long with highstorms in modern day, even if it is present in a lait. So unless a stoneward was also strengthening the wood to be as durable as stone, I think there is something up with potentially the strength of storms as of the time of the vision.
Hmmm, perhaps Chana is present because her other ideal is also brave? It could be said it was very brave of Fen to stand up to Dalinar and tell him to his “face” despite being “trapped” in his dream world why she was avoiding him.
Otherwise I agree with the rest of your post.
@47 (Sursavior) and @63 (Isilel): “Dalinar is an edge case, I feel, because it is fairly clear in the climax WoR, IMHO, that the Stormfather wanted and intended for him to fail. He had to pick somebody who fulfilled the letter of Tanavast’s requirements, he had no choice about that, but he purposefully chose the worst prospect(s) that he could get away with. As such, Dalinar earns the bond by beating his spren’s expectations.”– Isilel
Mind blown. Yeah, it does kind of fit with the misanthropic Stormfather that he’d just do the least required, expecting the worst out of humanity, expecting to storm off alone (literally) when everything would fail as he expected. I do think he picked someone in the Alethi ruling family because of the tradition of them being the keepers of the art of war. He seems to have skipped over Elhokar entirely.
If I am remembering correctly, the only spren we have seen out en force trying to find potential bonds up to this point in the books is the Cryptics (discounting the well established Skybreaker order for the moment). Shallan I think saw up to five of them at a time in TWoK, and we know from later in OB that Cryptics were what haunted the edges of Elhokar’s vision. This will change soon, but in the meantime there are still very, very few Knight Radiants, and most of them singular examples of their orders.
#65, @nightheron,
In OB Rock sees a bunch of Honorspren gathering around Bridge Four’s practice area, looking for prospects. One of them bonds Teft, presumably another one ended up with Lopen.
Are the Natanatans smurfs?
@66 Carl
In nightheron’s defense, I believe that occurs in the following chapter. So nightheron would be accurate that up until this point (as of this current chapter at least), the only spren that have expressed interest “enmasse” (which would seem to be more like 2 lol) would be the cryptics. Though the Truthwatchers would be another order as they bonded Ym, Stump and Renarin.
@66 Carl: Yup. That’s why I said it would change soon. The Honorspren finally will come out. Presumably other spren will too. It’s just that up to this point we have seen so few bonds.
As for why they choose Teft and Lopen, besides the fact that they are scouting where Kaladin and Syl are, and Teft and Lopen are two of Kaladin’s trusted cadre, I think it comes down to the personality of the spren. They might have originally been stamped from the same mold, but each will have their own life experiences, and then some created their own offspring, who then created their own in turn, and I think will be looking at individuals who meet their own ideals and interpretation of honor. I am hoping Teft’s spren is the one who Syl made sound like an Aunty Drill Sargent.
Sorry to keep trying to hash out this topic which is mostly done I just am really struggling to understand other people’s POV, which always makes me try. I’ve mixed and matched a bit from @64 and @62 here but hopefully it is still clear enough.
I find it interesting that both me and @64 Scath wrote similar things but from completely different perspectives also you kind of ignored my scenarios and repurposed them :p.
My comparisons weren’t military vs civilian. It was military vs military, which I thought was pretty clear from Solider A and Soldier B and both being in combat. I specifically talked about how the horrors of war would lead to people being broken i.e. almost everyone on the shattered plains/Urithru is broken in some way, but only some get this chance for redemption and COMPANIONSHIP. Don’t forget that Syl’s companionship is the only reason Kaladin didn’t step of that ledge…
“Because of the “powers” provided to you, you are put into harmful situations that others would not have been put into”
This is just not true apart from a few very very specific examples (Dalinar vs the Thrill as one), i.e. people in “tanks” don’t face up vs people in tanks, normal soldiers face up vs people with powers (see Szeth, Amaram, voidbringers summoning lightning, Midnight Mother, etc etc). Normal people, without powers, die in these events. If I’m wrong, feel free to correct me. This is not unique to Shardlight either, it happens in many fantasies and in the real world too. As soldiers you are expected to fight, and die.
@62 Carl I’m not saying if I was perfectly whole and safe I would desire to suffer trauma and become a radiant (this trauma isn’t a requirement in any case, Lopen) but rather if I WAS broken I would desire to be a radiant than not.
I guess what I am asking is: Who do you think would NOT desire to be a radiant? Is being a radiant not “desirable” for bridge crews? For the average soldier? Yes, they have the chance of death, but that exists already. Who has a higher attrition rate, our Radiants or the bridge crews? Who has a better life? Radiant Kaladin, or dead Kaladin? If someone can give me a concrete example of someone whose life would be worse when they become a Radiant it might help me understand your arguments.
“The more power you have, the greater the sacrifice, the greater the foe you face. “ What is the sacrifice? Again, everyone faces these foes. Radiants have a chance to survive and win. But everyone fights. I’ll give you that this is true for Soldiers, but not for Radiants.
For all the discussion about Adolin and him not having Radiant powers – I have always felt that I like him the way he is. Here’s the reason why.
This is one of my favorite passages in the Bible. I’m not trying to be religious or impose my beliefs here, but I just think that the path that Adolin is going falls into this one.
We already have so many superheroes in the Stormlight Archive. Adolin just being a normal human and still do impressive things like going to Shadesmar and surviving, or fighting all those monsters though he does not have any superpower just proves this passage to be right even in fictional scenario.
:-)
And that goes for you too, LordRuler @55. “Power is made perfect in weakness.”
@64: I have thought long and hard at how I was going to react to this last post. A part of me wanted to go hide, tail between my legs as I have usually done when faced with such opposition, but another part of me has decided to stand up for myself. I thus need to clarify several things for all to be read (while apologizing to others because frankly I doubt this amount of drama is what others signed up to read):
1) While I have disagreed with many people on many narrative elements, I have never considered my disagreement was a free pass to pass judgment on the individual posters. I have never decided to avoid anyone’s posts on the basis of one or two past conversations having turned sour. I treat each new conversation as new ground being laid down: I never judge commentaries based on who wrote them.
2) While there are narrative elements I have little interest in further discussing, I have not voiced out those thoughts out of respect for those who are interested in them. I have allowed the conversation to go down, without interfering with it, without publicly disclaiming how uninterested I found those narrative elements. Even better, I have been pleased to see other people engaging in those elements even if they were not my personal cup of tea.
3) I have always tried to be respectful. I might not have always succeeded, but I have always acknowledged, to the best of my capacities, when I have failed. I never reduced anyone’s commentaries by provocative one-liners neither did I ever write a full blown out-of-context rant because of how distasteful I found someone’s else opinion. I have always tried to counter-argued to the best of my ability: I apologize of some may feel it wasn’t up to their standards.
4) I have never bashed down other readers for having a favorite character. I might have voiced out my interpretation and/or feelings differ, but I have never used negative terms to qualify how other people choose to interact with this series. I have naively expected to be treated in a similar manner.
What am I guilty of?
I am guilty of having a favorite character which angers some readers even though other readers also have their favorite without suffering similar fate. People accuse me of making the conversation divert, but I have to point out a conversation takes more than one person to happen: if others are willing to engage on one or many points I have made within any of my posts, I will generally respond. I have never tried to make the conversation derail on Adolin: others have systematically picked those elements of my posts to make it a bigger deal then it initially was within the original post. I have never had a monologue, but I have responded to most which others consider was a derailment.
I am also guilty of having an interpretation of the narrative which clashes with some individuals. I always try to read what’s on the reverse of the medal and yes, this involves not always being within an agreement with the main protagonists. It often involves not seeing them within the same positive light as other readers.
Did I deserve those posts, those rants and this trolling? I suspect some are gloating behind their computer screen at how pleased they are someone dared do it. I hope there are others who are shaking their heads at how badly it has all gone down. In the end, I will however be the bigger person and I will not allow the mood on this nice re-read to disintegrate any further.
Hence, if it is this re-read’s most fervent wish I shall stop posting because my thoughts are too provocative and/or are too distasteful, I will bow down to the majority. I do not want to leave the re-read, but I do not want to constantly be at the center of the controversy nor do I want others to continue on bashing on my posts just because I was idiotic enough to mention Adolin’s name (and many other character’s names, but no one launched a polemic on that) nor do I want to destroy the enjoyment others have in the series due to myself not thinking like they are.
So this is it, if others want me to stay involved in here, I will, but if the majority would prefer if I weren’t, then so be it. I will no longer be the laughing joke of this fandom. In order not to further pollute the main thread, I will invite those who may want to say something to send a private message.
This isn’t meant to be passive-aggressive, this is meant to be as honest as I can be. Some people obviously do not want to keep on reading my posts, everyone knows there are no policies to censor me so all have to pass through oblique messages such as @64.
So is this what you all want? Me to be gone? Please say so, in PM please. No more bashing on me publicly because this is cool to do so within the SA fandom.
To others, I am sorry for not further responding, not because I have no response to be had, but because I no longer feel welcome here. @62, I thought your post was nail on and I agree with most of it.
To the mods, this is the last I will make this thread derail. I have invited others to respond to this, if they wish to, in private to avoid further derailments.
@71 just to point out, Adolin has a Shardblade so he’s not exactly weak, weaker compared to radiants, far far stronger than the average soldier ;). Agree with you generally though, and think it is more interesting when people fight when outmatched, everyone likes an underdog! Everyone rushing at Szeth is one I can think of pretty clearly, both in shattered plains when he came for Dalinar and when he came for Gavilar.
@72 I know you said private, but as this is an addon to the post, don’t think it is derailing much ;). I enjoy reading your posts, I find things from different POVs are interesting and make the comment section richer. In the same way that I wouldn’t enjoy SA as much if it was all written from a couple of POVs I wouldn’t enjoy the comment section as much if it was everyone agreeing with each other. I think it is natural for people to home in on the things they disagree with as it is more interesting than saying yes I agree with X. For me, it was people claiming that being a radiant was a burden that got me into posting more. Will see if I keep it up
saywot @@@@@ 73 Thank you
Hmmmm, some very convincing arguments pro Radiant vs Non Radiant. For all above, I am enjoying reading all these views, never think all are bored or insulted by each persons point of view. This is what makes us all individuals! I have learned alot about the written word, things I have missed, and attributes for the spren that went completely over my head on my first and second read! Now I can’t wait until Thursday for the next installment! Hooray for Alice and Lyndsey!!
@70 saywot
I understand, but as I wrote in my prior post, the greater the ability, the greater the threat/responsibility/trauma that results. Does a regular soldier in the Kholin army experience trauma? Sure! Because he is given “powers” (read weapons) that civilians do not have. This soldier has responsibilities and will go through experiences that will traumatize him or her. Next let us look at a radiant. The radiant is not meant to fight the general infantry of the enemy. They are meant to fight the voidbringers and the Unmade. The regular soldiers fought the midnight essences and held their own, the radiant confronted the unmade and nearly got her mind torn apart. Each person has their level of ability, their level of responsibility, their level of accomplishment. Neither is diminished in my opinion, and both has their own trauma from fighting. The radiant is not “better” than the regular soldier. They have greater power, but it is meant for greater threats.
Tanks were meant to break a deadlock during trench warfare when they were first created. So when a tank is employed, regular soldiers on the other side lose their lives right? But then the other side eventually comes up with responses to tanks such as tank buster rockets, and so on. So in this case the voidbringers would be the tanks. The tank busters the radiants. But then in response the other side starts using bombers lets say. So then the other side retaliates with surface to air missiles and so on. The tank operator, or the tank buster rocket soldier, or the bombardier all now have “powers” that can kill people whole sale. That doesn’t make them better, but it makes them have a greater responsibility to use these “powers” for the reason they were given, and the greater risk it opens them up to. Whereas a normal soldier could worry about a bullet wound, a tank operator gets to worry about getting gassed out, or blown up. The tank buster rocket soldier gets to worry about getting turned into a crater by the tank before he or she gets his shot off. The bombardier gets to worry about getting blown up, or crashing into the ground. Can all of these things theoretically happen to the regular soldiers? Sure! But they are not the primary targets of these retaliations. The retaliations are not built specifically to take out the regular soldiers. It is a war of escalation, and in a world of magic, your physical body is not the only cost.
But now let us look at the Heralds. They had power flowing directly from Honor. Imagine unlimited soulcasting. Imagine unlimited division. For them these are amazing powers that would trivialize thousands upon thousands of soldiers right? In prior threads, some have stated they like to believe the Heralds were the best of the best that chose to be bestowed these powers. Awesome! And all it took was never ending torment. Would you like to switch places with Taln? You get awesome powers! Just my great great great great great great great great great great grandkids will get to see you again after 4000 years of torture. Hope those powers were worth it!
Finally, Odium has not summoned his full army yet. We have not see a full radiant cohort. We have not fully seen what kind of damage Odium’s forces can do that it required the Radiants to be numbered in the thousands and civilization was still destroyed after each desolation. They were meant to counter the voidbringers, I think you will change your view once the desolation gets into full swing and radiants begin to bond enmasse to face the threat that caused their founding to begin with. So TLDR, everyone has responsibility, pain and trauma. Each has their load they have to carry. That does not diminish, lessen, nor trivialize the responsibility and trauma that anyone else bears. Regular soldiers do not get a free pass, radiants do not get a free pass, heralds do not get a free pass. No is “better off” or “wins”. That is my point. (edit: I went back and bolded this to hopefully help people understand the point I am trying to make)
edit: ah hell might as go extra wordy today. You mentioned you wanted your specific examples used? Sure, I will copy paste your examples and highlight my responses in bold
Person A and B are both broken. Person A gets the chance to bond with a spren, this offers a chance at redemption, a companion, a very very significant increase in rank and healing + powers.
Person A also gets to go toe to toe with a with an Unmade that attempts to tear apart their psyche so they can take up residence in their brain and potentially live in continual torment while possessed. Or Person A gets to then return to Braize so they can get tortured for years while feeling guilty that if they even falter for a moment, it would bring death and destruction to a whole world.
Soldier B has become broken due to his epxeirences. Soldier B gets a spren bond, as a result he survives a common otherwise fatal injury, while Soldier A dies.
Person B then gets a shardblade through the face just as he bonds the spren and attempts a try at redemption. The blade staying in the face overtasks the healing, and the soon to be lightweaver dies. Radiants can be killed too. Great powers, greater threats. Just because we have not seen them all yet, does not mean they are not there.
See now I would reply to your final example, but I already stated I will not be further engaging with Gepeto. So by replying to a point you said she wrote, I would be indirectly replying to Gepeto which would potentially result in instigating the whole problem all over again. Gepeto got to have her last word in and the whole thing as far as I am concerned is over. So suffice it to say I do not see any benefit to replying to it.
@76 scath
Good points about the Radiants being given powers to fight more dangerous foes. It’s still not fun to be an ordinary soldier during the Desolation, since everything can kill you, but Radiants get targeted specifically by Odium’s elite.
I don’t think anyone argued that being a Herald wasn’t horrifying. I have my own problems with Sanderson’s writing of the Heralds, specifically the way it seems to validate Alethi soldier worship, but I’ll save them for another chapter.
@77 dptullos
As it seems like there is no way I can say this, without it somehow getting linked to Gepeto, let me make this very very clear. What I am about to write is not to instigate the whole issue again. I am only clarifying specifically what I wrote, and me alone. It is no commentary or remarks on Gepeto as I have made it very clear I have no intention of engaging with her going forward. I have never said life was fun for ordinary soldiers. I never said anyone said what Heralds were dealing with wasn’t horrifying. What I did say is I did not see the merit in comparing the responsibilities that the radiants face with the responsibilities the soldiers face. Neither has it easier, neither has it worse. My point was the powers did not make the world suddenly better for them. Having powers means they face threats that require those powers to fight. Soldiers have the weapons (powers) they have to best fight the threats that they are required to fight. I do not think it is fair to the soldiers, nor the radiants, nor the heralds to say one has it easier or better off than another. So again, I did not write that to start it all up with Gepeto alllllll over again. The only reason I wrote this is to clarify that I was never saying soldiers had it easier, nor trivialize what they accomplish regardless the weapons or powers or what ever else they have access to. If you can punch someone, you have a responsibility to use it well. If you can shoot someone, you have a greater responsibility to use it well because now you can end a life with it. If you can blow up a city block, you damn well have an even greater responsibility because you can snuff out hundreds of peoples lives. What is comical about all this is it keeps on being presented as if it has to be one or the other.
I feel the soldiers can be appreciated for the things they accomplish, and the radiants be appreciated for the things they accomplish without needing one to be seen as worse or better than the other.
Hopefully that helps
#77, @dptullos:
In the Cosmere everyone is partly right. The Lord Ruler, villain of Mistborn, undertook his atrocities to save the lives of millions. Odium’s forces are enormously less racist-like than the Radiant side in the Stormlight Archive. The rebels in Warbreaker may be the villains, but their cause is actually just even if their methods are not (in the protagonists’ minds) acceptable.
So consider that the Alethi are, as I imply, partly right to be militaristic. Their divinities (the Heralds) literally directed them to do that! The teachings have been distorted and partly forgotten over millennia but that is an actual event that happened to their ancestors.
(About Team Odium vs. Team Protagonist: note the difference between how Moash is treated by the Singers and Fused, and how Rlain is treated by the Alethi. Kaladin for one is personally as fair-minded as Odium[!] but that is not the general case.)
Nightheron @65:
I don’t see why Alethi having been responsible for the preservation of the Arts of War would make one of them a superior option for the Stormfather’s Bondsmith. In SA so far unification by military force has been shown to be a wrong choice for the purpose of preparing humanity for the Final Desolation. On the contrary, military associations make Dalinar’s (and Gavilar’s before him) job harder.
And that’s the minimal requirement that the Stormfather was compelled by late Honor’s instructions to follow, IMHO – he had no choice but to pick a unifier. So, since he didn’t want for matters to progress into an actual bond, he selected the most flawed unifiers that he could get away with. Roshar should probably be very grateful that Vasher (an even more catastrophically failed unifier than Gavilar) was off the table for one reason or another. Ditto Ishar – I suspect that Honor must have specifically prohibited SF from picking a Herald. Anyway, Ehlokar was passed over because he was no kind of unifier at all, not even the slightest tendency towards it. Heck, he had a golden opportunity to forge the Highprinces and their armies together during the Vengeance Pact and didn’t even try.
We also don’t know how active or otherwise Truthwatcher and Edgedancer spren were about seeking bondmates, as they seemed to focus their efforts in the West, from where we got only very sporadic PoVs. Whereas the Cryptics have been quite active in the East – Shallan, Tien, Ehlokar, the group observing Mr T. in Karabranth, etc. We also don’t know what happened to the spren of the proto-Radiants killed by the Skybreakers – were they just allowed to escape? Were they severely traumatized for a time? Or did they bounce back and move to the next prospect, such that Ym and Stump may have been bonded to the same spren and Tien and Ehlokar as well? Or could it be that Nale and the Skybreakers trap the spren of the proto-Radiants they kill? We have seen with Timbre and Ehlokar’s Cryptic how vulnerable spren are when their humans are killed during the early stages of the bond, but after the spren has already crossed over.
Gepeto @72:
I, for one, enjoy and value your contributions very much, even though I don’t always agree. I also understand your frustration about the characters and potential plot-lines that seem the most interesting to you being side-lined and disregarded by authors – this happens to me very often, alas…
@79 Carl
That is one of the many things I love about Sanderson’s works. Depth of character. He shows so many facets that you come to understand and sympathize (not condone) even with his greatest villains.
@80 Isilel
I am definitely interested in learning more about Gavilar and his bond with the Stormfather and how the whole thing functions. Personally I do not think the Stormfather specifically “sabotaged” the bond. I think he did what he was compelled to, but expected it to fail because of the Recreance. Basically I feel the Stormfather was like “Fine I will do it, but it will just go the way I know it will, so I told you so”. Then anything that happened afterwards was merely confirmation bias. He expected them to fail, so anything Dalinar did that looked like failure, automatically was and in his mind proved his point. At least that is my thoughts on the matter. Can’t wait to find out more! :)
Hmmm, I theorize that the Truthwatcher and Edgedancer spren are separate. What I mean by that is that Wyndle stated that The Circle considered bonding him to the cobbler (Ym), but changed their mind when Lift asked for her boon of the Nightwatcher. We know Ym bonded a Truthwatcher spren. So this says to me the two orders acted autonomously from each other. I do find the Cryptics choices interesting because to me it tells us they really are “experimenting”. We have Shallan bonding as a child, is of a minor noble house but geographically in the “middle of no where”. We have Elhokar who is a king, and the center of one of the largest nations on Roshar. And then we have Tien, a dark eyes in an obscure little town. I could see the Cryptics attempting to take a random sampling of individuals that they feel would accept the bond of a Cryptic, and send spren to see what happens. Then they gather the data and decide from there. As to the group you reference as observing Taravangian, personally I disagree. Both times Shallan draws the group of Cryptics, they are standing around the subject of her art (first Kabsal, then Taravangian). When she drew them that second time with Taravangian, she fled and they followed. That is ultimately when she soulcasts for the first time. So to me, unless Kabsal was also a potential Lightweaver to the Cryptics, the reason the Cryptics were present was because of Shallan, not Taravangian. That is a very interesting point regarding the spren of the deceased proto-radiants. Personally I believe they are left alone but I do not have anything concrete that would point in that direction. It would be quite the boon to the war effort if it is revealed Nale has been keeping a “jail” of incarcerated radiant spren and they were released by the protagonists. Given how long Nale has been active, that could potentially swell the ranks by hundreds.
Hi, I’ve only skimmed the comments so I’ve probably missed a point. Yet, much like Brandon finds the limitations of magic systems more interesting, he finds diversity of motive more interesting.
Teft vs. Lopen vs. Kaladin – Great examples. All very different backgrounds and types of cracks in the spirt web. Some might say Lopen doesn’t have cracks. No, he doesn’t have the trauma cracks that were becoming too common in the story for our Knight Radiants. Yet they have now all bonded to an Honor spren.
People are imperfect. Spren are imperfect. The bonding does not make both perfect. It makes growth possible. Hopefully with them all being better for the learning process.
Diversity of point of view makes for better story telling. Diversity of character shown, and how they handle the problems, makes for better story telling. Diversity of representation, makes it harder to say “This is the only way” – which again, makes for better story telling.
This also leads to diversity of fan reactions, which leads us to better debates.
@67. birgit : Smurfs! haha! No, they aren’t, but I loved the laugh.
@42 “The idea “not wanting” something makes you more deserving never sat well with me. ” It’s not so much that it automatically makes you less deserving but that it makes you less likely to be corrupted. Rember Sadeas?
One more thing and this is for everyone it’s a quote from a series I love
Been away, trying to catch up. Anyway, regarding the worthiness of our Radiant crop, keep in mind that the new Desolation is here and no one is anywhere near ready. Spren-kind was scarred by the Recreance where 9/10’s of their numbers died and so delayed bonding until the very last possible moment. They are scrambling to find candidates that would fit their criteria because they know the Nahel bond is the only way Roshar has any chance of surviving Odium’s onslaught. So our vanguard may not be as deserving as Radiants of old but it’s not like the spren are spoiled for choice here. Dalinar may not have been the best choice but do we know of any who would be better? One who is well placed enough to accomplish the mandate of Unity placed upon mankind by Tanavast’s shade? There’s certainly no time to find a better one. Next, all our Radiant candidates have acted honorably before they ever obtained super powers. That’s the other reason they were granted those powers in the first place. Kaladin was protecting and leading way before he knew of Syl. He gained his powers so that he could do so on a larger scale. Shallan was providing spiritual sustenance to her brothers and her father to a limited extent even as she lost her access to Pattern and her powers. With Pattern reunited she can now do the same for nations. Lyft cared for urchins even when she was one. With Windle she can heal emperors. A saying I’ve always found appropriate, the reward for a job well done is more work and more complex tasks. Radiants just get a little more help in this regard. Teft will tell you that Radiance isn’t a cure for all one’s ails. Kaladin will tell you it’s not all sunshine and roses. There’s definite benefits to the Nahel bond but those benefits are a minimum requirement to even have a chance to defend Roshar and defeat the forces of Odium.
@EvilMonkey, when you write “… all our Radiant candidates …” you mean “… who are protagonists.” Otherwise you have to include, for instance, Malata.
It’s funny how up and arms people get over various parts of a fandom. I have zero interest in the Shardplate. Mechanics/vessels/weapons/tech tend not to interest me when it comes to worldbuilding.
I’m more intrigued by who the Shard in the epigraph is, although I don’t have any strong theories.
Fen and Dalinar’s reactions to the vision is a nice bit of character building, I think. Queen Fen is great :)
@21 – without reading all the other responses (I’m sure there are many and somebody will probably repeat this), two thoughts jump out at me right now. One is that Radiant-ness (perhaps like the Force or mutant powers and other such things) isn’t really based on moral rectitude. It’s just a gift some people have. It doesn’t demonstrate or confer moral superiority. Although, it does perhaps come with prestige that ends up mistaken as such (perhaps also applicable to the Jedi as well – do they really deserve to be in charge to the extent that they are?).
Second, if there really is supposed to be some kind of ‘divine’ will behind it, Brandon is no doubt familiar with the many instances in the Jewish and Christian scriptures where awful, awful men (or, if not awful, socially looked down upon or disregarded) are chosen as prophets, kings (David, ahem, I’m looking at you), apostles (Saul/St. Paul) and willing cooperators of God’s plan, as well as various saints throughout the ages – but end up reforming to some extent. I’m not sure what the Mormon take on this is or if they have their own examples of this idea. Redemption itself is based on grace, when you come down to it. This is not always a satisfying concept to our human mind. I struggle with it at times myself, especially in the face of scandal after scandal.
And yes I see this conversation goes on quite a bit, but I’m going through a deeply troubling spiritual trial at the moment relating to very similar topics and even some analagous situations, and don’t really have the emotional energy to hash it all out.
But in general THIS is what I am interested. And as for the rest, I actually really appreciated Gepeto’s (and the others different counterpoints) and perspective because it just makes the world more real and goes to show how many different ways there are to view the characters and concepts. Sometimes I do think the Adolin entries are a little offtopic but in this case I think it was relevant to compare and contrast non-vs. Radiants.
But I suppose I’ll see what happened after I catch up…
@carl
In regards to your statement @86, I remember an epigraph that comments that not all spren are as discerning as honorspren. Just because they are pieces of divinity doesn’t make them infallible. They are just as capable of making bad decisions as any other sapient being. I’m not sure that is what’s going on with Malata though. It seems like the Ashspren harbor more resentment towards humans due to the Recreance than the other highspren. Maybe it’s because they felt especially betrayed despite living their divine attributes (brave/obedient). To my mind, the Ashspren are participating in the great reaquaintence because they don’t wish to be left behind by the other spren societies. This is the same reason Cultivationspren like Windle begin approaching candidates. The difference is the Ashspren look to be choosing people with an axe to grind in addition to whatever attributes Ashspren look for in a Dustbringer candidate. Kinda hard to determine since we don’t yet know their Oaths. This of course assumes that Spark’s attitude is representative of his Order instead of a renegade element. Anyway, of all the Radiant candidates we’ve seen on screen Malata seems to be the only outlier, only we can’t be sure since we don’t have her background.